Well if the Canucks and Aussies used them, why not the British?
Well, there is that I suppose, but I was sort of concentrating on a very British back-story: procurement issues, the required lethality of a 120mm gun (due to the threat of the emerging T-64) and a new tank that was almost pushed to get out of barracks. I paraphrase of course and I must just say that as a true-blooded Englishman I’ve always liked Chieftain. It was the tank I grew up with, and then some(!), but such a back-story lends itself to all sorts and I sort of envisaged a Leo 1A3 on trials in Deep Bronze Green, but somehow with a Cent-type searchlight, GPMG, possibly a Ranging MG and Brit-type smoke dischargers. After that, I ran out of ideas; it was the thought of it all in Bronze Green that got me going(!)
Done that🤗
No thanks Frank, I’ve more than enough ideas hurtling around what passes for a brain these days; wouldn’t mind seeing your Brit Leo though…
Funny, that. For some years I’ve been wanting to build a Chieftain in Dutch service, because it got tested against the Leopard in 1968 to decide which tank would replace the Centurion. It might have been adopted were it not for the Leopard being judged to be better in just about every respect other than gun and armour, and especially in reliability and maintainability
My idea was something like a Chieftain 5-V, akin to the Leopard 1-V: stuff like Dutch smoke launchers and fire simulator, plus Stillbrew armour, an unused collar for a night-vision device in the turret roof, etc.
Wow Frank! They’re impressive - and have certainly got me thinking (like I need a distraction right now!)
Jakko, thank you so much for posting this fascinating video; essential viewing for all armour modellers I would suggest. Poor old Chieftain, always Cinderella, but oh! That engine noise - worth watching this for that experience alone!
I love the thought of a Chieftain in Dutch service: the modifications would be interesting, and the colour scheme alone (and markings) would make it so different on the display tables.
Thanks again for this piece of armour developmental history.
The music was the best part.
There’s a very good book about the Leopard in Dutch service, De Leopard 1: Gepantserde vuist van de Koninklijke Landmacht (“The Leopard 1: Armoured fist of the Royal Netherlands Army”) by Willem Smit (Amsterdam: Boom, 2008; ISBN 978 90 85064275) that also goes into some depth about the comparative trials. It has two photographs that illustrate very well why the Leopard was preferred, of the engine bays with the engines removed: one is white with some stains, the other is black with some white bits still showing. One guess which is which
TBH, the tank would be simply RAL 6014 all over, with only some fairly dull Dutch regulation markings on it. The only actually interesting scheme you could do for it, would be to assume 101 Tkbat would be allowed to keep its Centurion schemes when it converted to Chieftains — but as they weren’t when they got Leopard 2s, IMHO it would be stretching credibility.
Still, you probably would get (in the UK) people who know Chieftains wondering what is going on with this one, and (in the Netherlands) people who know the vehicles from their time as a conscript, wondering what this one is that they never encountered.
I think that a Chieftain - the shape of which is unmistakable - in RAL 6014 - with say, black and yellow registration numbers, a bridge classification plate, the tac markings on a mudguard, the national flag and even the Corps emblem (as per the ancient Esci Leo 2 for example) would look pretty good - and interesting. Add a crew - possibly with long hair for the timescale(?), Dutch smoke dischargers somewhere (not too sure where) - you’d have something notable on the display tables that’s for sure.
Go for it! I agree it will certainly look different, and yes, long hair would be appropriate for a 1970s/80s vehicle. The smoke launchers would probably be in the same places as the British ones, just of a totally different design, like that on the Dutch Leopards, PRTL, YPR, etc.
Shall I mention something equally interesting in this regard? The Dutch Army actually wanted the KPz 70. Only when that seemed to be taking its time getting to completion, and the replacement of the Centurion was becoming more urgent, did they start looking at the Chieftain and the Leopard. If Takom ever brings out the KPz 70 that I suspect they will,¹ I will almost certainly buy it to build as a Dutch vehicle, with appropriate modifications.
¹ Their VT 1-2 kit has too many roadwheels on the sprues for that vehicle, but exactly the right number for a KPz 70.
I’m afraid I’ve no plans just yet to actually make one - though I’d quite like the opportunity; I’ve so many projects simmering, or half-built that need my attention.
I was unaware that the Kpz was in the frame for Dutch forces, so that is extremely interesting. Would not the Dragon Kpz suffice for a build? It may have some flaws but as a potential What-If I’m sure it would still be interesting to build.
I’m actually a great fan of the MBT-70/Kpz-70 tanks. I haven’t yet built the Kpz-70 (Dragon) but I did tackle the Commander Models MBT-70 some time ago:
A Dutch variant would be great; I still have 3 x MBT-70s in the stash just awaiting that opportunity to update them in say, MERDC, NATO-flage etc(!)
I was aware of the number of roadwheels in the VT 1-2 model, and drew the same conclusion as you.
Thanks again for the info.
I’ve built the Dragon kit and it’s not too terrible. It does cry out for a bit of scratching details, and the DS tracks are a worry since they are unique and have no ready AM replacements. Would an in-service tank switch to the tracks used on the Leo2 that developed from it?
I’d say it may be too big a job to complete in the four months remaining, but then anything started in BTTNW3 is automatically eligible to compete in the inevitable BTTNW4 campaign to follow…
I want to depict the Dragon Kpz almost as per the box-art (which is also why I’ve yet another Elite Modellbau Munga in the stash!) but hope to utilise the AFV Club ammo set for a possible re-plen scenario… I’ll wait for the Ace Model Munga I think; I can’t face another resin one after my travails for my RMP Patrol version.
This has been on hold for so long the DS tracks have probably evaporated as they do; however, AFV Club 3512 tracks worked well enough on my MBT-70 so I’m sure would work on the Kpz version. Friul also do a set, just for your info.
Anyway, not anytime soon I’m afraid. BTTNW4 campaign it will have to be! And for any Chieftain(!)
Eh … it’s not really wrong anywhere, but it’s lacking in too many areas, IMHO. Especially the 20 mm gun and its whole mounting. As long as you build that closed, you’re fine, but if you want to have it open …
OK, this is a “what if the Americans had stuck an M85 machine gun in there?” but most of what you see here needs to be added to the 20 mm gun mounting as well, maybe not 100% the same but certainly similar items. (BTW, don’t be fooled by the colour: the ammo bin is not in the Dragon kit — I just happened to have a grey part of the right size in my spares box.)
I can see that that’s a lot of work; I know the Dragon kit has some details but obviously not enough, and infuriatingly, they still mould one of the hatches closed.
I’ve amassed quite a few pics over the years with a view to this project, but I think I’ll wait until the release of the ACE Munga - assuming it sees the light of day; that way I can keep putting it off(!)
Thanks for the pic - very interesting.
The various viewers on the turret are the other area where the Dragon kit is sorely lacking:
And, as you say, the gunner’s hatch is closed for some inexplicable reason. But so far it’s the only game in town if you want a KPz 70 — never mind an MBT 70, which is a lot more work, as you have to completely rebuild the engine deck and front mudguards, add American headlights and features to the turret, and more. Stuff like this:
(BTW, if my suspicions about Takom are correct, they too would release a KPz 70 of the second series of German prototypes, like the Dragon kit represents, not an early German or American one — the wheels on the sprues are the revised type.)
[Edited to add the photos]