Hi Guys, ANOTHER just returning to modeling - Question about "lacquer" paints

[Armor_Buff]

Have you had an opportunity to airbrush some of the new paints?

FWIW - 90% of the time I still spray the same Floquil Railroad & Floquil Military Colors now as in the 1990’s. In my experience, none of the new paints are better but some are equally good or very nearly so.

Paints I’ve tried and think are worthy of airbrushing…

AK Real Color
Tamiya LP
Tamiya Acrylic Lacquer
Revell enamel
MRP - Mr Paint
Gunze Sangyo aka Creso

Old favorites from the 1990’s I still use.
Floquil Railroad
Floquil Military Color
Model Master enamel
Humbrol (cut with lacquer thinner)

For filters and tinting ground work I like Tamiya acrylics w/X20A.

I greatly dislike water based acrylics that (over glorified latex house paint) but many others like them. Each to their own.

Even Floquil sprays better than the recommended proprietary thinners (which I still have available) with Mr.Color Leveling Thinner. So in my opinion, the choice of which lacquer, enamel or acrylic lacquer paint doesn’t really matter too much as long as it reduces/thins with Mr.Color Leveling Thinner.

That’s my biggest take away being back in the hobby for the last ~four+ years after being away for more or less ~20 years.

[Ed_Bert]

@Armor_Buff

Have you had an opportunity to airbrush some of the new paints?

When i decided to get back in I bought an embarassing ammount of Tamiya XF, I have several bottles of X and a small number of LPs. They all spray nicely, used X-20A on the XF and X, with the MCLT used on the LP. It took some getting used to paint drying as soon as it hit the model, and I suffered from coats that were too thin. But I learnt!

[quote=“Armor_Buff, post:21, topic:45154”]
Old favorites from the 1990’s I still use.[/quote]

Floquil Railroad Yes, still have several bottles
Floquil Military Color Nope
Model Master enamel Yes, still in good shape since stored indoors
Humbrol Yes, but only a few survived storage in those little tins

I’m just slowly recovering from the idea that there was only oil/turpentine (enamel) or lacquer (duh lacquer) or water (acrylic) based paints.

[AOE4]

Tamiya Acrylic paint has lacquer thinner in it from the factory? ? my point is some people assume Tam acrylic paint only works with acrylic thinner.I certainly am not a chemist but I did figure out a long time ago That Tamiya acrylic can be thinned with either of their thinners.OP asked me a question ‘is that a typo?’ so many including my self go thru a lot of grief trying to figure out how to airbrush paints.Thanks for the info that kinda makes my head spin lacquer paints perform much better for me.

[AOE4]

I have this irresistible urge to post my awesome paint stuff two inline paint booth fans to vent the nasty fumes outside. I recently have been using Mission Models paint, I am impressed!

[drabslab]

Two quite good video’s about paint:

Acrylic paints - debunking the modelling myths!

Paint for Building Scale Model

[drabslab]

Only yesterday Iused Mr Color Leveling thinner:

• in a 50% combination with Mr Finishing surfaces 1500 Black
• in a 50% combination with Gunze C365

both attempts gave me faboulous results (as usual).

For the rest, painting can be extremily complex, the many brands, the many types of paint… it continues to be difficult. And a lot comes down to experience and to get that experience you need to test leading to TOO many diffferent brands of paint in your workshop and no decent experience with any of those brands.

Hence, I would recommend any beginner to try one well represented brand… and when it works for you… stick to it and avoid all other brands. Do not follow the hype mania that makes you choose another brand of paint for every model. If not, you are complicating matters yourself and a paint job can end up with disaster when doing a camouflage pattern with paints from different brands and types that don’t go together.

Standardisation is key to success

[drabslab]

and adding to the above:

I avoid acrylics: they clog the airbrush and generally are not durable

I ALWAYS airbrush with a 3M paintmask on, those paints are not innocent.

Vallejo: although some people seem very happy with it, I tossed mine in the dustbin.

When nothing works, good old humbrol enamels can save the day (if not for those miserable bottles)

[BattleScaleCollectic]

I’ve used mainly AMMO Acrylics but the last few projects I’ve been also using enamels and lacquers too. It just depends on what, how big and how much $ the project calls for.

I agree Acrylics are more difficult to use. They have their place.

[SdAufKla]

Wow… Some modeling myths and urban legends just will not die:

Just because a paint is formulated with acrylic binders DOES NOT MEAN that paint is also water soluble. “Acrylic” DOES NOT EQUAL “water-based.”

Sure, many acrylic paints are water-based or water soluble, but many others are cellulose-based (alcohol, lacquer thinner, etc.).

Some of those cellulose-based paints can incorporate a small amount of water which is likely the source of the myth and legend that ALL acrylics are water-based. This is because some cellulose thinners (especially alcohols) can be mixed with water, but just because the cellulose thinner can be incorporated with water, water is probably NOT the intended reducer for the acrylic binders that paint uses. (Note also that some readily available medicinal alcohols, like isopropyl “rubbing” alcohol, contain other materials [like lanolin, a wax used to mitigate skin drying] to their solution that will do harm to your paint job. So, 70% “rubbing” alcohol is a very poor paint thinner.)

Using solutions that contain both water and ammonia (like glass cleaners) can chemically “force” more water into solution with the cellulose carriers (thinners) that the paint is formulated with, but water (and ammonia) can also weaken the acrylic binders as the cure and cause them to fail to adhere to the substrate being painted. (Ammonia is in the class of ionic solvents and is not a cellulose nor an aromatic-petroleum solvent.)

On the other hand, most acrylics that are water-based cannot incorporate any amount of cellulose thinners (or only very, very small amounts).

Paint chemistry matters, and the first thing that everyone needs to do is forget the idea that because a paint is an “acrylic” that it is also “water-based.”

If you don’t know for sure, stick with the paint manufacturer’s proprietary thinner / reducer. If you do decide to use some “expedient” reducer, be sure that it’s actually compatible (in a chemical sense) with the paint. Just because something will reduce a paint’s viscosity enough to airbrush it, does not mean that same something is actually good to use. Problems with adhesion, durability, drying, curing, application (especially “tip drying”) etc. can often be traced to the thinners being used.

[Armor_Buff]

@SdAufKla

Paint chemistry matters, and the first thing that everyone needs to do is forget the idea that because a paint is an “acrylic” that it is also “water-based.”

^^^^ Absolutely percent on the mark!

Fantastic post A++++

[AOE4]

please clarify for me? acrylic binder I understand that now so…an acrylic binder will bind an acrylic pigment? mineral pigments have been around for thousands of years they use some type of oil as a binder a far as I know. Tamiya acrylic paint uses acrylic binder and an acrylic pigment? but yet I have the option to use Tamiya lacquer with their acrylic paint. I suppose I am obsessing on hobby paint pigments…I need to know I only use proprietary thinners, got that much right. I am learning here, thanks so much.

[sluff]

Liquor is WAY better than lacquer. I’d’ve gone for Maj. Rudolf Anderson’s U-2. (I want to do the spiffy International orange Edwards bird.) I’ve tried a couple lacquers, could only find the colors in lacquer. Hate the stuff. Enamel or acrylic. INHO- YMMV.

[Armor_Buff]

I’m far from a chemistry expert but maybe someone who is can explain in detail. It’s a confusing subject due to so much technically wrong info on acrylic paint on the internet.

Hopefully this will help.

I belive (subject to new information) the key difference with Acrylic paint is the crosslinked polymer chemistry the paint uses to cure. The crosslinked polymer is what makes Acrylic paint so durable, weather resistant and so on.

This can be achieved in various ways using 1) mineral spirits
2) alcohol
3) water

…all are valid Acrylic paints

Pigments are optimized for best chemistry to help support the crosslinking process.

So basically the pigments usually end up being synthetic. Synthetic pigments could also be used in other types of paints etc if needed etc.

@Armor_Buff

Reddit: Model Maker - Acrylic vs Acrylic Lacquer specifically the posts by Joe Audrey contain worthwhile information.

Hopefully the following link above will help it had one of better concise explanations.

[SdAufKla]

@AOE4:

Consider that the kinds of paints that we’re discussing have three basic components - the pigments (solids that provide the color), binders (which essentially “glue” or “bind” the pigment particles to the substrate and to each other) and carriers (aka “vehicles” or “thinners” which create the desired viscosity so that the paint can be brushed or sprayed). There are, of course, other ingredients that may be included like drying retarders and flow aides, but the essential parts are the pigments, binders and carriers.

(Note that in some paints, like artist oils, the binder and carrier properties are inherent in a single component, usually a vegetable oil like linseed which dries and polymerizes over time leaving the pigments bound to the substrate. However, in the kinds of model paints we’re discussing - three basic components.)

Acrylic binders have little to nothing to do with the composition of the pigments. Acrylic binders form special “long-chain” molecular structures when they cure which are generally impervious to redissolution (i.e. they generally cannot be re-dissolved to return to their pre-cured state). These long chain polymer structures “lock” together to create homogenous, film-like coatings that also incorporate the pigment particles. Thus, the advantages of acrylic binders over other types of paint binders are their resistance to future applications of solvents and thinners and their durability and adhesion.

Acrylic binders come in two basic types (with regards to the paint formulations): emulsion type acrylic binders and solvent based acrylic binders. The emulsion types can be said to be “water based” and the solvent types can be based on either petroleum or (most common with model paints) cellulose solvents. In either case, once the carrier or solvent has evaporated and the acrylic binder has cured, the resulting long chain polymer film will resist redissolving with a future application of the thinner (unlike many enamels - before fully curing - and most lacquers - even after long curing times - which can be redissolved on the surface by an application of the thinners - which then causes each fresh layer of paint to incorporate into the earlier layer to create a new homogeneous, thicker layer of paint.)

These properties of acrylic paints are why they generally tend to break up into large flakes and particles when you clean them from your airbrush or “hairy sticks” after they have dried (cured). It is also why “tip drying” can be such a problem when spraying them as the small ball of cured acrylic paint forms on the tip of the needle and becomes impervious to subsequent paint flowing past it. (Tip drying is another subject for another time…)

So, back to your original observation:

@AOE4

an acrylic binder will bind an acrylic pigment

Not exactly. While I suppose it may be that there are some modern pigments that are manufactured using acrylic polymer ingredients, the kind of binder (acrylic; enamel; lacquer; or organic binders such as, oils, waxes, gum Arabic, starches, egg white, etc.) has nothing to do with the kind of pigment. However, the kind of binder used has everything to do with the kind of carrier (aka: vehicle, thinner, reducer) used.

So, water for emulsion types of acrylic binders, and alcohol / lacquer thinner for cellulose types of acrylic binders.

[AOE4]

thank you, I am going to have to read the posts a dozen times to wrap my mind around the info. I am going to feel more confident now with my airbrushing, why I have failed sometimes etc. I have had recent success with Mission models acrylic primer and paint. the owner Jon Tamkin walked me through what I was doing wrong. I mention this if anyone wants to give it a try. Its the only acrylic primer I have success with less toxic too.

[SdAufKla]

Cheers! My bottom-line advice is almost always to find a brand or paint line and then learn to master it. For model paints, the measure of performance is in the final appearance of the work. Modelers are not really concerned with abrasion resistance, lubricity, flexibility, salt and rust protection, etc. We only really care about how the model “looks” so details about the chemistry are only important in regard to how those characteristics effect application (either hand or airbrushing) and layering (adding subsequent opaque, semi-transparent or transparent layers of colors and effects). As long as the right techniques, methods and ancillary materials are used, most brands of model paints can give as good of results as any other.

In the end, I’ve seen excellent results from just about every brand of model paint there is (or ever has been), and from that my conclusion is that skill and mastery of the medium(s) are more important than the medium(s) used.

The issue that I see is that too few modelers will stick with a brand of paint long enough to really (REALLY) get good with it. Many others will go looking for greener grass by switching brands even as they just start to develop some proficiency with the brand they’ve been using for a while. They’re constantly looking for instant results like the ones they see in magazines or books without appreciating that the celebrity modelers whose work they admire have spent many thousands of hours MASTERING their medium(s) of choice. So, they chase after the products endorsed (or even marketed and sold) by those celeb modelers in hopes of getting better results because of the medium rather than better results because of their own skill and technique.

If you’re getting good, promising results with Mission Models paints, then my advice is to keep working with those paints until you’re able to get every last bit of performance from them. When they “sing and dance to your tune” but then still cannot give you some specific desired result, then it may be time to add (ADD not SWITCH) another brand or medium.

On the other hand, even after years of ever greater satisfactory results you might find that the deficiency is not in the paint but rather it exists in your own lack of skill or knowledge or experience. I’ve been using Tamiya paints for more than two decades (after switching to them when previous brand and medium of model paints I had used for nearly 20 years was discontinued by the manufacturer). However, even after all of that time, I’m still learning new methods and techniques for using the Tamiya paints. Just when I think that I might need to add some new paint line to my arsenal of lotions and potions, I discover that the effect that I want to create can, in fact, be done with the Tamiya paints. I just have to learn that new technique.

[Tank_1812]

Sage advice as always.

[AOE4]

Agree totally. I am trying to find a less toxic paint hence the effort to understand Mission models paint. I am a Registered Respiratory therapist so I do freak out a bit about trashing my vital organs. Taken care of more than few pro house etc painters that have suffered a painful demise but that’s is a whole other subject. Thanks so much for your post.