What was actually learnt...& maybe some food for thought

Because the M10 wasn’t a tank, it was a tank destroyer, a motorized AT gun. It did not have the tank’s armor protection nor a bow MG. The hull was unsuitable for deployment as a tank.

Also, it would not be a simple swap of production priorities. It would involve new material allocations for the different thicknesses of plate required and new tooling for constructing the hulls.

On top of that, the M10-type hull would not work with the R-975 radial or the Chrysler Multi-bank engine. Those engines were used in 45% of US tank production 1943-1945. Not using those engines would have led to a dramatic, if not crippling loss in tank production.

“Why didn’t they just . . .” Always seems easy 70+ years after the fact, especially when there is no knowledge or consideration of what is involved in controlling a multi-billion dollar interconnected procurement plan for one of the largest air, land, and sea forces ever created.

KL

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Did the Brits use the 105mm Sherman? Can’t remember ever seeing one in use. The idea looked good to me as a bunker buster. I’ll have to run that one by my son inlaw as he’s really big on Canadian and UK armor. Your thoughts make good sense to me
gary

were not the M10 & M18 T.D.'s also lightly armored? Not that the Sherman had a great deal of armor thickness
gary

I’ve seen many photos from WWII tank plants, and the machining process for the turret probably took as long as the hull. Remember they didn’t have CNC machine centers back then, and most everything was single step boring mill processes. The first full auto machines didn’t surface till 1949 or 1950 (Bullard Manutrol), and that was a VTL. If they got a turret done in a week; I’d find that amazing! Of course they probably had a dozen boring mills cutting a dozen turrets at the sametime.
gary

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The problem was the Charioteer was classified as a tank, while it was essentially SPAT (a sort of new Achilles, really) so it went to the wrong branch. The Cromwell hulls utilised were a hodge-podge of different versions all getting similar but different upgrades to bring them to an almost standard. Interestingly, despite a modified turret ring several surviving Charioteers have been converted back to Cromwells.

Cheers,

M

Well, the T-34s built in Stalingrad and at the 112 factory had interlocking, welded plates in 1942, so long before the Panther.

I am not making the claim that the T-34 was the first, either. Maybe there were earlier designs than that.

The Christie tank, Grand-pa of the T-34, also had sloped armor, but only on the glacis.
:grinning: :canada:

are you sure they used dove tail interlocking plates? I’ve never seen a T34 that didn’t use butt welded plates. Quite different structurally. Still I’ll look at photos to be sure
gary

Yes, I am 100% sure. Hulls from factory 112 and STZ were interlocked. All the narrow 9one-hatch) welded turrets in 1941-42 were interlocked also. So one year earlier than my claim.

you are aware that I said dove tailed interlocking plates? Not butt welded plates. Can’t say that I’ve ever seen a Soviet tank with dove tailed interlocking plates
gary

image

Quite well aware of what you wrote. Consult photos of welded-turret T-34s. The front is interlocked. On STZ-built tanks there are additional interlocks on the turret roof. You can see the interlocked plates on the turret front of this 1941-vintage T-34.

On the hulls, tanks from STZ and 112 had interlocking plates also.

“It was the first tank to use hydro static drives”

Could you tell us more about that?
I was aware that the Tiger’s gearbox had hydraulic assistance for engaging the various clutches, but that’s not the same thing as a hydrostatic drive. I thought the drive forces were transmitted entirely via metal.

David

More than a bit late to the discussion, but I’d offer up a couple of general observations.

It’s not surprising that these modeler discussions almost always focus on the narrow technical aspects, very often in direct comparative ways, such and thus sub-technology on this tank was superior to the tech used on the opposing force tank for the same purpose, therefore this tank was, itself, overall superior. Afterall, we modelers are often as not attracted to the subjects by the technology and aesthetics. The “cool-factor” often becomes the focus.

Except for a few comments above (K.L. and a couple of others), very seldom are the broader contexts of the designs, like doctrine, logistics and economics discussed.

Another aspect often missing from the discussions is the effect that the advancement of general science the evolution of materials and other technologies has on the development of designs.

For instance, the similarities in armored warfare doctrine that led to the development and fielding of multiple “classes” of tanks (“light, medium and heavy” or “light, cruiser and infantry”) were driven (no pun intended) by existing automotive, metallurgy and propellent (chemistry) technologies as much or more than other doctrinal considerations. I’d argue that doctrines were created to use the available tank types (or classes) which were themselves limited in design by the available technologies.

Once intercontinental war has begun, then the aspects of national economies, manufacturing and global logistics take priority over the possibilities of technologies that may also be advancing. These economic, manufacturing and logistical aspects are more unique to each country concerned than science or technology (in general terms) and their national combined application has more to do with what actually shows up on the battlefield than straight forward technological considerations.

So, the super heavy Tiger I, as has been noted, offered up no exceptionally war-winning technological advantages, and its existence represented economic, manufacturing and logistical capabilities and considerations that were almost uniquely German. There was nothing so technologically advanced that the US or British believed that they MUST incorporate into their own designs at the expense of interrupting their own flow of tanks to the battlefield. The Germans relied on piece-work manufacturing using only limited critical natural resources but benefited from internal, terrestrial lines of communication. The Germans were able to recover many broken or combat damaged tanks for return to the homeland for remanufacturing and reissue. This formed a major part of their logistical sustainment effort until the tide of the war in the east turned on them. They never made major improvements in the way they manufactured key equipment, so while they became more efficient, they never actually expanded their manufacturing base to true, mass production.

The British designed and fielded an ever-evolving range of tanks and tank types because their own economic and manufacturing capabilities (again, traditional European piece-work) were limited such that stopping the manufacture of one model to start another didn’t create a crippling effect on the production of all the other types. The British could afford to do this because their manufacturing base was limited and they were not trying to supply a global war effort. The British never moved to true mass production, either.

The Soviets concentrated on a limited range of tank types with incremental improvements because their manufacturing base was seriously disrupted early in the war requiring near complete relocation and reestablishment, and they were later able to expand to design and produce heavy tank designs because they only had to supply a single theater across internal, secured terrestrial lines of communication. The Soviets could (and did) collect up their battlefield lost tanks for major repair and return to their forces, so reliability and tactical maintenance support only had to be good enough at the very front lines. Broken or damaged tanks were usually located behind Soviet lines to be recovered and reused forming a major part of their logistical sustainment efforts. The Soviets evolved into mass production, but their quality never caught up to the mass. This was acceptable, though, because the battlefield life-cycle of their tanks was one of “reincarnation” to keep operational numbers sufficiently high.

The US concentrated and focused on perfecting the most efficient production of just a few basic designs and put huge effort into making those designs are robust, reliable and easy to maintain as possible because they had to supply a global war effort (keeping not just their own forces supplied, but also those of several allies). They had to do this over global lines of communications that were mostly sea-born, and they not only had to supply the major end items (the tanks, themselves) but also all the other supporting logistics to keep those tanks running. Having sufficient, “good enough,” but supremely reliable and easy to maintain (to keep operational number high) tanks was the goal. High manufacturing rates to supply many theaters and allies across the globe while compensating for losses, not just on the battlefield, but also potentially significant losses in transit (i.e. sunken cargo ships full of tanks) was the priority. Design improvements were not prioritized for tactical superiority over opponents, but rather on making production more efficient.

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Dave from what I gather it’s the way the steering works. Prior to that most tanks steered off braking, but with a hydrostatic drive it takes the place of the brake on one side or the other. Also makes it easier for the driver. All tanks use some form of a hydrostatic drive now (actually two drives). You will still have the two out board brakes, but use them far less.

An example is the Abrams tank. It’s pure hydrostatic drive, but also has more than one gear range. The Tiger gear box would be crude compared to the modern stuff but it was the start of a new thought process. Hydrostatics in modern equipment are variable speed (not sure about the Tiger). I well remember the TACOM guys talking about the WWII Tiger drive system and how it started a new evolution. Be interesting to see the guts of the Tiger’s gear box to get an idea how they did it. I do know that Hydrostatics were state of the art in the 1930’s as I’ve seen it used here and there on machinery (it’s all bearings shafts & gears in the end)
gary