That’s the one that keeps cropping up online when searching for it, but Hunnicutt’s Abrams has a series of six photos of an MBT 70 with a row of smaller blocks on both curved faces of the turret. The caption says they were taken on 27 March 1969.
1 Like
With what I know of the politics of the time, I’d say that in such a scenario France would probably be more likely to buy the German version than the American one. Two main reasons: France has always[1] wanted to reduce the US’s influence over European matters (and increase its own), and the 1970s was the time when Franco–German relations were beginning to noticeably improve.
Well, at least for much of the Cold War period ↩︎
2 Likes
I dunno Tom; the thing is, you can have as much fun as you like, save to me, there must be an element that makes sense. I’m not strictly sure (not that it matters of course) that an engineering version adds any value to the vehicle fleet of whatever one would devise. Surely, to me. its attributes as an MBT are what makes it an attractive vehicle in the first place;? That is, remembering that in What-If land all the gremlins have been fixed, viz: Shillelagh viable, other ammo natures (including a fearsome APSDS), hydraulic suspension providing a tactical edge when it comes to concealment and stalking, automatic loader works ,and the Driver amazingly cured of sickness and disorientation! I don’t think a tank fleet owner of such battlefield ability would sacrifice any such abilities to make an engineer version; perhaps the good old M728 would suffice?
What I would see, on the dio tables parhaps, is say, a Sgt York successfully deployed alongside, and I suppose a Bradley, if one stretched the likley mods and improvements in the tanks’ life.
That’s not to pooh pooh any say, Gulf War deployment, (not too sure what any mods would be mind - power-pack sure, but I’m a bit adrift in thinking of much else): stowage arrangements, and that’s about it. I’m afraid I don’t have much truck with those who say, put the Driver in a hull, sort of defeats one of the attributes mentioned above to my mind, as brought out in Franks excellent video clip.
I did find this rendition of, presumably a Gulf War version:
but doesn’t show any differences, just a paint job really, but one to get the creative juices going perhaps!
3 Likes
Thought for a moment that thing on the turret cheek was a speaker! All I could think of was Oddball’s tank from Kelly’s Heroes. Now, just try to unsee it after I’ve put that image in your head… 
2 Likes
I’m not so sure; I think the purchase of German Panzers would leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth, both for historical and even emotional reasons. A US purchase would make much more sense, not least as it might enable the US to smooth over things when the French heaved them off their turf back in around a decade earlier. I forgot to mention: for my "What-If scenario, all is set in around the mid 70s, perhaps event/themes ceasing at say, 1979?
I concur that the respective heads of state got on easily enough: Brandt though was concerned at developing Ostpolitik, whereas Pompidou, as you identify, was focusing on trimming US influence. However, in my What-If land, my backstory sort of runs something like this:
With their experiments in heavy armour proving disappointing back in the 1950s, whereby the French built several experimental AFVs based on German doctrinal efforts, they decided to go another way. An abortive collaboration with Germany in developing a tank, came to naught in 1963, and both nations pursued their own designs. The result of this, the AMX 30, was relatively light, but then that was a direct result of the French experience with AFV development back in the 50s. Some, of course, would say too light for the modern battlefield, but the French went their own way, and began to operate a fleet of 1355 tanks, with some 300 due to be based in Germany.
However, with the successful introduction into USAREUR of the MBT-70 in late 1971, the French could not begin to doubt the abilities of this remarkable AFV, (they almost encountered it on a daily basis in southern Germany) and gazed with covetous eyes at the mobility, speed and armour, all an improvement on their AMX 30. The US were keen to cash in on this - literally - as well as capitalising on the diplomatic front, and talks began as to the purchase. The French drove a hard bargain, threatening at one point to purchase German models (although this was a bluff); they also demanded that they wished for the tanks to be issued minus the main armament, stating that French industry would provide their own. This wasn’t a complete fiction: the French had recently developed the ACRA missile, designed at the time for the AMX 30. This was, more or less, a version of Shillelagh, save that it worked extremely well. When the designers were told they could develop a further version but this time to operate from a gun that would be a whole 10mm larger, they were ecstatic, especially as the original design. they were told, was likely to be scrapped. And this is what happened: the French received some 200 MBT-70s, relatively cheaply from the Americans, built and designed their own gun, operated it with what became known as ACRA 2, as well as other ammunition natures, the latter developed with the British, and operated it alongside the AMX 30 fleet, which was subsequently halved, in Germany as part of Forces Françaises en Allemagne (FFA).
In French service it was known as Char de Bataille Principal De Lattre de Tassigny (named after a notable French Army general,) inevitably being reduced to the soldiers’ vernacular as “Le Lattre”.
And that folks, was where my backstory sort of ran out of steam, but will probably do for my modelling purposes(!)
Apologies for my liberties with the French language.
Kit mods: Stowage, though at this stage I’m not quite sure what. Searchlight, perhaps of the AMX 30 variety? Main gun - perhaps a move of the fume extractor, or say, a muzzle counterweight, or possibly nothing at all. Antennae - French pattern, ditto smoke dischargers. And that’s about that. Colour schemes: French green, French vehicle registration number, town/province name on turret, crew from Blast - their excellent AMX 13 one, and now I really am out of ideas!
3 Likes
The only reason for MBT 70/KPz 70 to have the driver in the turret was to more easily protect the crew against radiation, though. If that is no longer a major requirement, there is no reason not to move the driver to the hull if this would simplify the tank in other important ways.
Spielberger’s Waffensysteme Leopard 1 und Leopard 2 also has this drawing:
Unfortunately, the date on it is too small to read. Notice that this is not a straight KPz 70 with just the driver in the hull, it also has the anti-aircraft gun in a different type of mounting. It retains the Shillelagh, though according to the book one of the options discussed after Germany got out of the project was a KPz 70 K (for Kanone) instead of FK (Flugkörper) because “The operator needs and wants a gun” according to a quote from General Guderian on the page after that drawing.
1 Like
Sorry, just not interested in that concept whatsoever; to me, it detracts from the uniqueness of the concept. It’s quite funny in a way, here was the US ramming everyone in the turret, and the Soviets were putting everyone in the hull. See Object 450/T-74:
4 Likes
I should amend my tone a tad(!) That’s not to disparage the interest value that Jakko has offered up here at all. It is an interesting aspect, and I’m quite grateful at the interest thus shown. As a modelling concept, I feel it has real scope to hopefully, trigger all sorts of ideas. I hope so. Jakko’s helpful addition is not to be sneezed at.
3 Likes
Don’t worry, I hadn’t taken your post as “piss off with that!” 
Rather, as your interest being MBT 70s with the driver in the turret only.
2 Likes
Aside from the modeling aspect of this thread, the theoretical discussion is turning into an excellent standalone topic.
I’m actually getting the itch…
3 Likes
Hah! Good for you Russel! I’ve just found out earlier today that the Canadians too were monitoring the progress of the MBT-70 across the border; so, another great possibility - save that it would have to be the US version - for a great colour schme, I’m sure you know the one (shown here on a M113):
Unless Takom or someone presents us with a US version soon, one could almost distort the history (Jeez, does it even matter, it’s “What-If” land), and use the Dragon/Drami version, somewhat akin perhaps to the Canadians “renting” the Leopard 1A2 back in 1976. I see the story-line being something akin to this:
The Canadians were expressing interest in the MBT-70 project from the word go, despite the predations of a budget-obsessed government, but their Centurion fleet was in dire need of replacement, and even if a relatively small number were purchased, at least Canada would be seen to be participating in NATO’s Central Region, and even punching above its weight overall in Europe.
Accordingly, when they began rolling off the production line in 1971, Canada made a bid for some 60 x MBT-70s; however, they had reckoned without the equally interested efforts of the French, whose request had already been signed and sealed by the US government. Tanks for Canade were not expected to be available until, at the earliest, 1979.
However, salvation was at hand in that the Germans, always eager to cash in on an opportunity, offered up 50 Kpz-70s on a loan basis to be delivered in late 1973; Canada’s often mercurial Prime Minister, especially where defence matters were concerned, leapt at the chance; he did not wish to be seen as dragging his feet amongst his fellow NATO members.
So it was, that Canada took possession of 55 Kpz-70s, (roughly a battalion’s worth) all of them the 120mm-armed variant,in November 1973. This was to the great frustration of the Bundeswehr, who wanted their M48 fleet replaced as soon as possible, but to the satisfaction of the politicians and businessmen.
It must be remembered that at this time, intelligence was reporting that a new, capable, highly technical and effective tank was being delivered to the other side of the Inner German Border; this was the T-64, and its existence would come to bedevil NATO for some time.
Right, let’s get these models built(!)
4 Likes
A final detail on the GVT-70 - the amber traffic warning light:
I found this one on eBay from this vendor who provides all sorts of different lights, in all sorts of scales. Give him a try if you need blue emergency lights or amber warning ones. A very helpful supplier; just enter this:
LIGHT BAR ROUND BEACON AMBER GREEN POLICE CODE 3 1/76 CORGI 1/50 1/32 1/43
5 Likes
Now I want to purchase some loose LED lights, mount them an poles like you did, and stick them on all future science fiction stuff.
If Takom released a 1/35 American MBT-70 with hard plastic tracks I would buy it.
1 Like
Doug, they could issue one with tracks made of jelly - I’d still buy it!
Jeez, the imaginative possibilities with this hobby; I’ve almost trapped myself in What-If land for a few months unless I get these MBT-70 impulses under control!
1 Like
It is a good looking tank and rather important since it essentially served as a technology demonstrator for the Leopard II and M1.
Come to think of it, Leopard, M1, and M60 tracks should fit the Dragon/Drami model. If one is already going the what if route, may as well change up some more stuff. Not sure why I did not think of that until now.
1 Like
I found the Dragon tracks just fine on mine (Kpz-70); Commander Models, when they existed, recommended these on their MBT-70:
There is at least one pic of the MBT-70 which would indicate that a track similar to the M60 design was fitted to one of the US prototypes:
2 Likes
Not sure about M60 tracks, but M1 Abrams T156 tracks fit the Dragon sprockets (they’re on my Gulf War version) and Leopard 2 tracks fit at least Takom’s VT 1-2 which has a shortened KPz 70 undercarriage. For both of those, I used the Trumpeter workable track sets, but I assume this means tracks from other brands will fit, too.
1 Like
I never use soft plastic or resin tracks. For giggles, I just counted teeth on some drive sprockets.
Dragon MBT-70: 11 teeth
Trumpeter M1A1/A2: 11 teeth
Takom M47: 13 teeth
2 Likes
And another find
2 Likes