I just scored Hobby Boss’ Marder III M and Tristar Marder III H off eBay for a good a price $16 and $24 respectively!!
I’ve really wanted to do a German vehicle in this camo, and I found a picture of the Marder M sporting it
I was wondering if anyone knows when this camo started to appear and what front it was prevalent on. I did find another photo of a destroyed Marder M sporting the same camo
Caption claims it was from operation bagration but hard to know how reliable that is
The Marder IIIM began production in April 1943 and the tri-color scheme started in June of that year, so definitely any time past 6/43 is fair game and the Eastern Front is a good place to find them that way.
Not sure if you were planning to put something else in this scheme but I have to say that so far the IIIM is the only vehicle I recall ever seeing painted that way.
I’d have to dig it up but I think I saw a picture of a Sd Kfz 7/2 painted the same way. I was planning on painting the Marder this way though.
I find the two tone spots neat, with the outer brown and inner green ring
Don’t forget antiaircraft units were under Luftwaffe command and they likely had their own twist on camo.
I’d be interested in knowing if that 7/2 was part of the same or an affiliated unit.
Here’s a couple I dug up
One is 7/2 and one a 7/1, possible they were in the same unit as the Marder. Maybe I’ll do a small dio with the Marder and 7/2
Make sure you’re not mistaking a heavy outline for a different color.
The Marder in the first pic shows a decided contrast between the ring and the inner color. The others aren’t all that markedly different in contrast and what may seem like two colors could also be a heavier application of paint that was filled in with a lighter hand.
My “2 cents” worth coincides with posted thoughts. The timeline would be after winter 43. And a keep concept with German Camo pattern really follows like a teenager shopping. That is to say what looked cool, and you have time to apply it, probably worked wonders. A small piece of advice, stop chasing the dragon, if you like the pattern, use it. I for one am a HUGE fan of base Panzer Grey, with Dark Yellow overspray. I researched the dickens out of it. Found that many units used this pattern after, spring 1943. Many continued the use through the end of the war, Again, the broken record in me… I cite 19th Panzer Division. If your German is good, I highly recommend the book
Other than that enjoy the build… never let the IPMS in all of us distract you from enjoying building…
As both are on the same chassis, could it be a factory thing? My camo knowledge is only a bit beyond basic so the actual differences in schemes attributable to the factory I am not sure of.
Nice Add sir, great pic’s
Yup the Hetzer and Marder where both on the Panzer 38T chassis! Not sure if they were made at the same factory though. The Hetzer was designed to replace the Marder series
So, not to come off as a “know it all”, BUT… generally speaking, within the German Armed Forces, camouflage was not applied at the factories… Most armoured fighting vehicles came of the production lines as:
1939 -1943,(spring)= Panzer Grey
1943-1945,(early)= Dark Yellow
1945 to the end= Panzer Grey, (Allied Bombing caused huge shortages),
Camouflage, tactical insignia, and unit numbers were generally added at either the “ersatz” depots within that unit’s designated area(s), or at what was loosely known as "assembly areas. These were essentially the same kind of thing only MUCH MUCH closer to the actual front or fighting areas. Here in the US, think about the Tank units we have, an M1 comes off the production lines, after trials, it goes to say, Fort Bliss, (1st Armored Division). There it is received, by the Quartermaster, then issued to a specific unit within Fort Bliss. It MAY receive it’s paint scheme there or at the specific unit receiving the new tank. Think, is the receiving unit going to Europe for training, that would be OD, is the unit going to the middle east, desert color.
The German system WAS TOTALLY based on how the war was going. After 1943, Zitadelle, the based concept was, “get as many tanks to the front as quickly as possible”. Plain and simple.
I really hope this “blah Blah” helps
Just noticed the tamiya instructions for their 2002 Marder M has the camo with a unit in the Netherlands
All due respect, that is not remotely accurate.
In 1939-40, the standard camouflage for AFVs was panzer grey with dark brown blotches. It’s very hard to see in b&w photos but that was the standard. I don’t know if it was done at the factory or at unit depots but I am sure someone more knowledgeable than me can comment.
In 1941-early 1943 it was generally plain panzer grey from the factory However, many vehicles were also factory painted in ‘tropical’ camouflage, intended for the North Africa fighting. These vehicles weren’t necessarily sent to Africa, of course, and many turn up in the USSR during this period,
Beginning in Feb 1943, and going till maybe summer of 1944, vehicles left the factories in plain wehrmacht olive (what we call dark sand or sand yellow) and units were issued with cans of concentrated green and brown paint. The idea was that units would paint their own vehicles. This resulted in some real chaos. Units could also repaint existing grey vehicles of course. So you get some pretty interesting schemes during this period, with some well-done schemes and some equipment looking like it was painted by an 8-year-old. Many vehicles were just left in wehrmacht olive. Because painting was done at the unit level (not necessarily by their crews despite the stories) it is often possible to identify units by their distinctive paint schemes.
In 1944-45 generally most AFVs were painted at the factory in multicolor schemes. The same three colors were used, but they were applied by professionals in good conditions, usually to standard patterns. This si why, for example it is possible to identify the factory of origin of AFVs by their paint jobs.
There is zero, nada, no evidence that any AFVs got painted panzer grey at the end of the war. There is, however, fairly strong evidence that even the very last vehicles ever produced had regular, textbook camouflage schemes.
The term “assembly area” is a place where a combat unit gathers temporarily (usually VERY briefly) before an operation. They do things like refuel, eat and get orders/plan. An assembly area is very close behind the front line, typically within enemy artillery range.
An assembly area is not a depot. Depots would be very far behind the front lines (if they aren’t something has gone badly wrong!).
Well Dan, I don’t like to start a pissing contest, BUT your reply smacks of superiority and contempt, more over I personally don’t like a remark such as not remotely accurate. Part of me says you are an IPMS wennie who doesn’t know SH-T about German Armor. Another part of me says, this guy hasn’t the knowledge to add an opinion. So I will just say, try flipping reading something other than Wikipedia. Then offer an intelligent opinion. NOT a half assed one
Dan, because I believe ignorant people, such as yourself should be gently educated. Demag, Mann, Henschel and Porsche all report, and I do Quote " lack of dunkelgelb, that would be day yellow to you… in the final months of the war. Additionally, there DOZENS of end of the war photographs of G variant Panthers decked out in Grey.
Once again I don’t find your smug all-knowing response as offensive as I do your remarks. Please spare me your response, I will not respond after this to a person who CLEARLY likes to hear himself speak or in this case read your own writings.
Thank you for screwing up my day. This fellow modeler was looking for help, I proffered an opinion based on 50 years of research, both in the field and in national archives. Instead of helping I sank to your level of stupidity and responded with a knee jerk reaction that I would anyone who attacks me even one as sheepish as yours,
Try researching German divisions, their home areas, Frankfurt, Dortmund and the like, this is where all ersatz REPLACEMENTS would come from. Then be parsed out to the assembly areas, or location areas. This is where a vehicle gets camouflaged NOT generally at factories.
To the original poster, PLEASE accept my apology. My one true weakness in life is “half baked assh—s”.
I’m sorry if you found my response offensive. I began with “all due respect…” because nothing I wrote was personal. The only person who has said anything that might be a personal attack is you. I am not and never have been a member of IPMS, not that that should be a negative comment.
The fact remains that most of what you wrote, both in your original comment and your followups, was not accurate;; it is demonstrably wrong. Thus it has the potential to mislead other people who are new to the subject. It’s great that you are trying to be helpful.
I would genuinely like to see one of the ‘dozens’ of original color photos you have seen of a grey Panther G. There are original color photos of the last dozen or so Panthers ever made, and they are camouflaged (at the factory) in green and brown. But if you can show us just one, I will modify my opinion.
Here’s an excellent bit of research on the subject:
