I’m a bit late here. And probably the time spent for this answer will be a waste. I hope that you will have fun at reading.
I’m french. I am sixty-one. And I slipped in AFVs ( mostly german ) since I’m ten.
The variety, the camouflages… I was loving those beasts as well as the obsolete weapons that the Germans had to use ( now revealing to me the weakness of their industry ).
There was no political reasons.
I am also collecting panzer/artillery related stuff.
I feel very dirty, when some people think that “ I am like them” because my interest for the german stuff.
Liking the german stuff doesn’t mean that I share their nazi thoughts, their wrong opinions !
Some have poor knowledge of history and they are just fascinated by german weapons because of their “said” technology and supremacy. And the valiant german warriors, etc…
Some can be english with war looking as a game, a certain idea of europe was thwarted regrettably… Because they didnt suffer the domination.
It can go deeper into confusion, when they can say that german technology was produced only by german workers ( with blond hairs and blue eyes ? ) and there was no forced workers ( “only propaganda” despite 12 millions ). Of course, nothing is supposed to be sabotaged by those workers with reduced life expectancy. Forced workers can also be as the design level : a friend told me that his grandfather, as an engineer, was forced to work hard in Germany, for free, 7 days a week IIRC, with his wife kept as an ostage in another camp…
My speech is inaudible to a convinced Nazi. I now use it as a test !
Because I can’t be friend with idiots. Rather no friends than idiots ! ( because I am now 61 )
It has a cost : I will be less invited for a ride in a Kubelwagen… or bigger !
Fortunately, german stuff lovers are not all nazis ! But when you feel dirty, you want to wash up ! I must admit that I had the idea of cutting a Tiger I track link ( or Tiger II ) with a angle grinder, weld the bits together and make a video of it. Put all of them in the blast furnace or burn the ammo boxes ! Make them bleed !
I am also in the subversion. Making obsolete combination of german technology with odd tractor ! Or german tractor with foreign weapon ! Or destroyed/abandoned/burnt Panther for the mourners… Because I never forget how war is stupid, despairing to see that the lessons are not learned.
Nazis oriented people are dangerous, but also can be people scared by our hobby who have no dialogue and understanding…
Ethics in modeling. An interesting concept, but somewhat mislabeled. I suppose it should be modeling subjects. Anyways my two cents on the subject:
I like history, particularly that of the past couple of centuries, with an emphasis on WWII to today. Building models as a young boy turned me on to that history with the instruction sheet stories. Later books brought to light subjects that I’d like to build. Since most of those subjects are wartime items, and gained their fame in combat, it’s only natural to build their opponents to add context.
Moving on to the post war & Cold War era subjects, again some faced each other in the “little wars” of those times, or sparred with one another in “non combat” incidents, both shooting and non shooting, between the superpowers or their client states. I model those subjects for the same reason, to show the conflict of that era. Later I served in the military during the end of that era, came across many items that I model now, to commemorate the service and efforts of myself, comrades in arms, and our opponents.
I am well aware of human nature. Not everyone who wore the same uniform as I was a good human. And not all of those who wore the uniform of the other side were evil incarnate. Some truly believed, and others just showed up because they must for one reason or another. No system is perfect, each does have its own merits at times, as well as their flaws, but some are far better than others.
Are there some subjects that I won’t model? Yes, but those are due to personal beliefs based upon my own life experiences. It’s not so much the subjects, as the using units. I do not like to make models of certain SS units due to their documented battlefield record of repeatedly killing prisoners or war and local civilians. The equipment is an inanimate object. The man inside operations the item uses it in the good or evil manner. But I don’t tell other folks what they should or should not choose for their own subject choices. Freedom of choice is important to me.
I was merely commenting on the Civil War here when a bunch cry “they’re taking away my heritage” on the removal of statues etc, financed largely by the Daughters of the Confederacy that have tried to (forgive the pun) whitewash the Civil War and cast it as some moral state rights vs federal domination struggle of spiritual proportions. A part of our shared history is the Civil War, a shameful legacy of the US was the acceptance by some state of human slavery. History isn’t heritage and visa versa though. No one has tried to ‘cancel’ the Civil War, battlefields, memorials, graveyards, no one has called for that. But the removal of statues, the majority placed in the early 20th century by the above mentioned group solely to remind African Americans subtly about which people ought to be admired is an issue I have no issue with as no one of those are period pieces (like the cannonball in a column of a city hall in town near where I grew up). Removing a statue in a town square has never erased the 1860’s. And that short segment of American history neither meets the basic academic definition of culture or heritage. My mom grew up in the segregated south, my dad was a ‘yankee’ from Ohio. My great grandfather, mom’s side, Served in an Alabama confederate regiment but was illiterate and uneducated and dirt poor and was clueless about the bigger picture as many were. It’s one thing we as a nation are prone to, follow the louder voices without asking the why’s. All that doesn’t make the south and the Battle flag my heritage but it does put the CW squarely in my family history. Hope that helps clarify my take on culture/history/heritage.
There’s alot to unpack, better served off this thread. You raise some interesting topic that deserve deeper discussions. However, if you’re buying history books from Walgreens you’re going to have to work harder at convincing me on the cancel argument. They carry bandaids, shampoos. And toiletries. They aren’t a museum or book store anymore than Sam’s, Costco or Walmart or Target. Them not selling Dr Herman Hathaway’s Civil War books isn’t cancel culture, it’s economics. I’m sure one of the many local city or county museums would appreciate the business and specialize in books like that. Removing or choosing what books to sell isn’t banning. You can still buy it elsewhere. You’re taking one thing, spinning it into another and dry a conclusion from aflawed premise is all. Causation is not correlation and correlations is not causation.
Anyways, good points, just not the forum here but I didn’t want to be rude and not acknowledge your reply but had to touch on the Walgreens bit.
At the risk of dragging the discussion from the depths of current politics up into the shallows of comedy, I feel the need to relate a Civil War story. I was living in North Carolina some years back and took my car in for an oil change. Two of the local lads were picking on a third, calling him a **** yankee despite him having the deepest southern drawl you could imagine. When I asked why, one of the others pointed out the victim was from West Virginia, as if that explained everything. My blank stare prompted him to add “they sided with the North”. I later learned that when the entire Union Army of Ohio arrived at the border and told the West Virginians they were heading south to fight the rebels, the good folks of WV held the door open and hoped they wouldn’t stop til they were safely out of state! Sadly that has forever tarnished them in the eyes of the South…
As for me, I am fascinated by engineering so I model things that are interesting examples regardless of who drove 'em. But I agree it’s complicated when the nastiest side in modern history had the coolest-looking tanks and went to war in double-breasted suits designed by Hugo Boss.
There is no problem with history. The problem is the presence. History is history and that can’t be changed. Yes interpretations can change but not the facts. The issue now is a ‘now’ issue. It’s folks using history to address real or perceived issues of the now.
There is now a political industry. Folks living on money made from other folks fear and/or ignorance. Pick a group, there’s lots to pick from. But for the sake of debate lets look at the climate change folks. The industry has tens of thousands of folks all over the world making money out of talking about a subject that only some can talk about. The rich in, many cases, are those lecturing others about them not having the same opportunity they had. Lecturing poor countries about staying poor. But not to open a can of worms the same can be said about the cancel culture folks. The woke folk. BLM. The radical right. ISIS. The list can go on and on. The political industry is now becoming more and more polarized. To the left and to the right. Those of us stuck in the middle have no hope.
Who was it that said “you have nothing to fear but fear itself”?
Choose your hobby and subject matter based on your beliefs not on what you think others will think of you. If you choose a subject that offends some folks then try to understand why it offends them.
Oh - oops. I logged into FaceBook but I meant to go to Armorama…
Thats a joke cause I dont have a FBook account.
LOL
Huge HUGE News Flash:
This is Hobby, possibly a fun & relaxing pastime ( ).
This is not a political movement, a prison work-release program or a cure for cancer.
If you not having fun - DON’T DO IT.
Another problem solved due to my super genius ability to see the obvious. Your welcome.
It’s all part of your heritage… the good and the bad. It’s what defined America. You can ignore the parts you don’t like but it still happened.
Slavery was part of America from the beginning. The Founding Fathers punted on the slave issue placing the formation of the country ahead all else.
The truth is the vast majority of those in the South did not own slaves. To them the North went back on a heretofore legal system that they were really no part of … and invaded the South.
There are lessons to be learned all around. Especially now with government overreach running rampant. And where those considered heroic healthcare workers a year ago are now being fired.
Respectfully I don’t want to hijack this thread going into US history, roots of the Civil War, was it state rights vs federal rights, economics, morality, over slavery… Who fired first, did the North or South instigate and on and on.
I think we got off of ethics and now we, in general, are using the terms history, heritage and culture and the “attacks on XYZ” without clearly defining those terms because they are not analogies and are separate entities and different concepts but we’ve muddied the definitions and it’s causing a bit of confusion.
With respect to all the nationalities here I’d prefer to park this segment of thread, I don’t think it’s conducive to the topic and those not familiar with our history say from 1830-1880 this will be dry, confusing and boring. Plus it borders too much into slipping into today’s politics and if I cracked the door then apologies. Many here have vastly different views and I like this apolitical environment and don’t want to touch off a war of words and burn bridges or offend. And as our overseas friends know our politics at this point is pretty fractured and frankly ugly, we are civil here in this forum whereas in our public spaces and public offices it’s now the fashion to attack and be crass. I think these folks here should be spared that noise since it’s embarrassing and frankly sad.
Hope you understand that it’s not that I don’t want to drive in, just don’t feel this is the time or place. Having a BA in history and philosophy and piles of American history (some dry enough they come with risk of wildfire warnings and cause prolonged droughts) along w a huge (for me) collection of 20th century books, I enjoy nothing more than a spirited debate w rational people and a healthy back and forth.
Yeah going off piste here was always going to be an exercise in futility, nobody’s likely to change their minds. In a probably vain attempt to haul the discussion back nearer the track, the most recent discussions made me ponder the seemingly popular battlefield recreationists on both sides of the Atlantic, reliving the ACW in America and in England their own Civil War over 200 years prior. There are even the occasional accidental (?) fatalities & plenty of injuries. I guess they take our hobby out of plastic and into reality where no ethics appear to trouble them, they just wanna kick s*** out of each other…oh…um
The point of my OP was to ask, if when building a model, you consider the ‘ethics’ of what your model represents. IMHO building for pure historical reasons is fine. Likewise building for the challenge to out smart the sadists in the kit manufactures design teams is fine. I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy the history. I admire a lot those who take a standard kit and turn into something beyond what the kit first represented. But at some point I get nervous about what it all represents.
This is Hobby, possibly a fun & relaxing pastime ( ).
This is not a political movement, a prison work-release program or a cure for cancer.
If you not having fun - DON’T DO IT.
Another problem solved due to my super genius ability to see the obvious. Your welcome.
Neo it’s not about being right or wrong. I think folks here are simply considering how history may, or may not, affect their hobby.
bruce
What you talking about? Right and Wrong? LMAO
You do you see me mention that in any way shape or form? In ANY way?
Do you think people here consider that?
Cause I’ve been a member here for 12 years and I never seen the subject raised till you.
Well I’ve been around for 4 years and I’ve seen this subject raised more than once before – for example I remember around 2018 when someone posted a vignette of a concentration camp cattle car, where were you? And more to the point about your previous post, I don’t think anyone here said they weren’t having fun or that it wasn’t a relaxing pastime. You’re content to just build models, that’s fine & good onya – but that’s not what the original question was about so why are you in this discussion at all? An obvious question your self-proclaimed “super genius ability” seems to be overlooking
The problem is that it has gone way beyond that. Statues of all sorts of figures in American history, from Christopher Columbus to Thomas Jefferson, to Theodore Roosevelt are being removed. The question of “what are you rebelling against/what have you got?” has been unleashed in a manner that has no limits. I have no dog in the Civil War debate, as my known relatives did not arrive into the USA until the end of the 19th Century. But I understand the perspective of those that fought on both sides. I do not think that there is anymore shame in respecting the professional battlefield skills of Generals Lee or Jackson as there is of respecting those of Field Marshalls Rommel or Manstein.
They aren’t being erased from history though, just removing statues in communities where the representation isn’t quite as simple as “look at this guy”. I don’t see an issue if a community at large wishes to remove a statue from town square on a figure that’s divisive. Personally I’m not keen on me memorializing a general that took up arms against his fellow citizen and against the duly elected government. Many of the confederates in alot of towns were locally known as mini tyrants and slave abusers, since wealth got military titles many of the larger slave and land owners got pretty strong commissions, deservedly or not in the South. So those men are not simple generals or colonels but very polarizing figures locally. I mean there is a segment that think Lee Harvey Oswald was noble. Should he have a statue in Daley Plaza? That’s how some communities view those statues so the removal has to be looked at from a broader perspective, IMO. TR I will admit is a man I admire from his conservation views (as I am an avid outdoorsman) however the other knocks have to be weighed in. And his one statue was moved, not destroyed or hidden away. I spent several semesters w classes on NA history, the Indian schools etc and live within a few hours of some of the poorest and most depressing reservations in the US so admittedly my take on Colombus and the domino effect on NA’s is too expansive to dive in here (let alone he didn’t really discover NA first but that’s a whole nother 12 pack discussion).
As above, good points but we are digressing so I wanted to acknowledge the validity of your points but in good faith don’t want to explore or debate at length here.
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herder’s Northerns & Southerns often have cultural differences to over come. Delving into warm & cold culture. 
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