Question. What color did this tank use? Green or sand grey?

Could they be a VERY dark glossy olive drab??

4 Likes

Could I use this model to build an early idf as the inicial picrure?

3 Likes

The IDF Sherman in the photo, is based on an M4 (105) VVSS, which would have a different engine deck and hull rear, additionally it should have a metal line used for connecting the canvas thingymajig on the turret face. Other small differences due to Israeli modifications.

2 Likes

The IDF were using the French olive green to paint their early tanks and it is very dark, so it could be that the colour looks like black in the photos

Or this could be the brownish colour referred to above as it was much browner than the US olive green

4 Likes

Kinda interesting. I pulled those two black Sherman pictures into a paint program to check the RGB values and they are not black of gray. They are a very dark blue green. I then checked against WWII US Olive Drab and some other olive drabs. They are not that, either. The interesting thing is that, no matter where the picture is sampled, the RGB values have a spread something like R, G=R+X, B=R+2X. That could be an artifact of the original picture taking process, or how the original picture chemically deteriorated over time. Thought I would mention it because I know some model builders are rally picky about colors.

As an aside, in 1979, Graham Masterton wrote a book called The Devils of D-Day that features 13 black painted M4 tanks. General Patton gives the order for their creation and uses them to beat the Germans, with horrific consequences. My dad enjoyed horror stories so when he finished, I was allowed to read it.

4 Likes

I had read, years ago, one reference that stated that the French olive green faded to a khaki-ish brown in the desert sun. Black IDF Shermans are new to me, and would certainly make for an interesting addition to the collection.

Robin, I am going to guess that the shadow variations are simply geometry, i.e., angle (and intensity) of the sun. Yes? No? Maybe? Perhaps I’m just not understanding your questions about the shadows.

3 Likes

Sisay, I’m curious - these black painted tanks, like ā€œLighteningā€ in that top pic, were they assigned to a specific unit, a specific region, or was it an experiment? Any idea?

4 Likes

That’s the fun part, I don’t know! Back then the IDF armored corps was small.

Brigade 7 - Active service, formed in 1948 and got it’s first tanks in 1952 IIRC, still exists today

Brigade 27 - Reserve, formed in 1952, after multiple iterations disbanded in 2014 with Merkava Mark 1 Meshupar tanks

Brigade 37 - Reserve, formed in 1955-56, after a couple iterations it continues as a reserve tank brigade today, Brigade 179.

M-50 Shermans as seen in the photo were present in two tank companies, one Company A of Battalion 82 Brigade 7 and Company Gimel of Battalion 268 of Brigade 27. The ā€œBarakā€ (Lightning) writing appears on the turrets of other Sherman tanks of the era, and I have no idea why, to my knowledge the was no unit named Barak back then, and it appears or multiple Sherman types which means multiple companies, very interesting!

Regarding the colorway, I have no idea why some tanks were painted black while others weren’t, I can guess that all the tanks after a certain period were painted that way, and those which didn’t need a paint job since their initial one earlier were spared… I really don’t know!

Sorry if my answer was structured confusingly, I got confused a little by your question and realized it halfway through :slight_smile:

2 Likes

That alone should be enough to conclude the tank isn’t black. A pretty dark shade of greenish olive drab, going by the photo, but photos are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to colours.

You realise you’re talking to modellers here, right? :wink:

That’s what I’m leaning to, anyway.

No :slight_smile: That Tamiya kit is a large-hatch M4A3, the tank in the first photo is a large-hatch M4 with a different engine deck and hull rear, as well as other details. As @Sisay_E says, these Israeli tanks were based on M4 (105 mm) models (there were no other large-hatch M4s with welded hull front) but with a 75 mm gun and mantlet retrofitted. Modifying the Tamiya kit to that configuration requires more than just swapping the engine deck and hull rear with those from an M4 or M4A1 kit, though.

… learned nothing useful :wink: Colours in photographs are never what they are in real life.

4 Likes

I have also either read or heard on the old IDF-in-Scale forum that early armour was sometimes painted with colours mixed from whatever was available at the time. Spares and materials were in short supply in the early years.

3 Likes

This one Could be a better match then for the inicial one?

3 Likes

I was curious about the darkness differences between two vertical surfaces facing the same direction (shadow side of the tank)

1 Like

Right. Got it. Good question. I’d propose that given the high angle of the sun in the direction of the machine gunners hatch -putting the far side of the turret in shadow- dust on the port hull side, and the fact that the ā€œdark sideā€ of the hull deck was in the shadow of the turret, the turret would receive no reflected light from it, there by making the turret’s side to appear darker that the hull side, which, covered in dust, offering some ability at re-reflection of the surrounding sands would be lighter. :thinking:

Or it’s a just poor photograph.

Or Aliens passing by on their way to check up on their pyramids.

Please feel free to discuss.

1 Like

I think @namengr Wayne
and @Jakko have the best
explanations with hatch shadow
and uneven accumulation of dust

1 Like

My way of agreeing with them?

2 Likes

Yes that is the perfect starting point. The tanks the IDF acquired had the 105 guns demilitarized by having holes drilled in them and were replaced by 75mm guns with their corresponding gun mantlets.

Many had miss matched road wheels and missing parts like head lights

Also most (probably 90% from the photo evidence) IDF Shermans used T54A1 tracks.

2 Likes

Most likely, yes. I don’t particularly like Dragon Shermans myself, but at least this should give you the right tank straight from the box. You may want to replace the tracks by T54E1s, like @idfpaul also says, and you’ll have to find an M34A1 gun shield and 75 mm gun somewhere, because those don’t seem to be in the box (going by the instructions). You will want those from another Dragon kit, BTW: Asuka’s, for example, won’t fit the Dragon turret.

2 Likes

IDF try not to name every single thing ā€œBarakā€ challenge:

5 Likes