Hello everyone. Question : what color was this idf tank?
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Assuming it’s from the 67 war it could conceivably been either.
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Thanks for your response armorsmith. I see no markings on it. Did those tanks use any?
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Should have at least a registration number. However, some of those vehicles literally at the start of hostilities and may have rolled directly to the front. At least that’s my understanding. Someone with more knowledge will probably probably chime in and have better information.
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Why do the turret side and hull side have different darkness?
Same sun, same desert, same photographer, same camera and exposure settings, same photographic film, same film development, same reproduction process, same book/magazine/newspaper, same everything
so why is there a visible difference in darkness?
Edit: I thought I had posted this extract from the photo above
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Hull side is closer to the ground, and picks up more light reflected from the ground; the turret is partially blocked by the hull from getting hit with that light.
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Would it be due to the desert dust accumulated on that área?
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I am not convinced …
Reflected light doesn’t fade after another yard or two. The ground is not smooth (mirror) so the reflected light would scatter in all directions and some light must have reflected off the ground and entered the camera since the camera could “see” the ground.
If the theory was correct the side of the hull would get gradually darker from the lower edge above the track up to the top edge
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i think those were early Shermans. Israel post 1948 was struggling to get a decent armored force going, so they started getting some early M4A1s from the French, along with some M4A4s from the British; they also were purchasing junked ones from scrap vendors across Europe; cobbling them together with a myriad of guns, turrets and engines.
I believe the early Israeli M1 Shermans were still painted in WW2 era US Olive Drab during the 50s, until the IDF formally started painting them in light desert grey. Don’t quote me on that though.
#34 Israeli Shermans: The Most Powerful Shermans Ever To See Action. | The Sherman Tank Site
Another interesting post on how the Israelis “acquired” their first Shermans from the British.
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To me,since the sunlight seems to be coming from the upper front, it appears to me like it is the shadow of the driver’s hatch causing a shadow on the turret side. Just my thought. Wayne
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Maybe.
But the upper parts of the mantlet also appear darker than the glacis.
Even outside the shadow of the barrel.
Dust would not cease at the top of the hull.
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As Sable Liger suggested, hull from one tank in one color, turret from another tank in a different color. The resulting “hybrid” tank has not been uniformly repainted.
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My guess is that it is all dust accumulation on both areas from moving. There is dust on turret side, but crewmen climbing onto and off of the turret has removed some of that dust. The hull side dust build up is undisturbed by crew movements.
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I’d just like to note, that in the early 1950s until 1957-ish, many tanks in Israel were painted in black.
Regarding the comments made by other people here.
Tactical markings in the IDF were very rudimentary early on, they only became a real thing in the late 1950s or 1960, and have generally stayed the same since then.
Regarding serial numbers, it should have a serial number painted on the rear hull plate, and on either side of the hull, towards the front. Sometimes a secondary turret serial number on the gun mount.
If you fellows are interested in a more detailed explanation of early IDF Shermans, I can write something up. If someone more familiar with the forum rules can tell me if I can open a thread for sharing history (with lots of photos of course) that’d be nice.
Attached are a few photos of black Israeli tanks from the 1953-1956 period.
01:53
Do note that later, like in 1958 we see a brighter, distinctly brown camo.
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Of course you can!
Start a new topic in Armor/AFV - Cold War and fill it with history.
Cheers / Robin
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That would make a great model ! Especially against a sandy background
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Dust is my guess. If you have Tom Gannon’s Israeli Shermans (Second Edition),[1] look at page 67 for two photos of an M4 very much like the one at the start of this thread, including with the handholds on the sides of the hull, and photographed on flat terrain. The hull of this tank is covered in dust but the turret much less so, making it clearly darker.
I’m not convinced that the tanks in your photos are black all over.
There appears to be a darker colour behind the registration number, which I think is not simply due to JPEG artifacts throwing the pixel colours off. The tank is also clearly darker and greener than the commander’s tank helmet, which would likely have been black cloth, and the Besa on the turret, which would have been dark gun metal.
(As an aside, the tank that started this thread also has a Besa anti-aircraft machine gun.)
Tiptree: Barbarossa Books, 2017 ↩︎
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I was going to point out the same thing. I would say that the tank in the initial post is definitely from the early 50s and well before 1967. Also other than dozer tanks I’m not sure if the IDF was still using 75mm Shermans by 67
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Besa anti-aircraft MGs were standard back then. I have found the document which specified it in the standards for “Sherman Degem Alef - Keva” in the IDF archives a while back.
Regarding the black camo, yes, the white serial number is painted on a black rectangle distinct from the rest of the camo, and yes there are a pair of green paint coming through, however the tank is painted in a very dark grey / black depends on how nitpicky you are with wording.
It is very important to note, that different films caught the same colors differently, and it could very well be difference in film, however even black and white photos from the era sometimes show some tanks being distincly darker than others.
Sadly unlike with American vehicles, where in archives researchers have found exact scientific specifications of each color, I haven’t not to my knowledge any other researcher found anything of that sort on early Israeli tanks.
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If need be there are many other photos of that tank, it was a part of a training session with another tank and some infantry.
@idfpaul 75 mm Shermans (M3) were only used with CRAB II in 1967, I have a photo of one knocked out. Will be discussed in the history thread I will soon open.
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