Questions about M4 mediums

[Damraska]

I am very close to finishing an old Sherman IC Firefly project and want to start another in the next month or two.

Back around 2009, I bought a bunch of M4 mediums / Shermans with the intent to cross kit them and make four specific vehicles and one extra. Unfortunately, that was 17 years ago and my knowledge of M4 tanks is mostly forgotten. I am seeking information on doing this correctly.

Project 1
The goal is to build a New Zealand M4A2 named “Queen of Beauty”. The plan is to put three bar cleat tracks on a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa. Is this combination correct for “Queen of Beauty”?

I know the Dragon M4A2 Tarawa requires some corrections.

Was “Queen of Beauty” black on beige or olive drab on beige?

The book by Jeff Plowman suggests black on beige. Another modeler painted the vehicle olive drab on beige.

Project 2
The goal is to build a diesel M32 tank recovery vehicle used by the US Marines in the Pacific. Was there a machine named “Alice” in this configuration?

Please note, the first few M32s used a somewhat different turret and less robust A frame boom than later ones. “Alice”? used the later turret and boom.

To make this vehicle, I want to combine a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa with an Italeri M32. Will this result in the correct configuration for “Alice”? What tracks did “Alice”? use?

Project 3
Cross kitting a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa with an Italeri M32 will leave the italeri hull and the Dragon turret. Can I combine these two pieces (M4A1 large hatch with early turret, low bustle, etc.) to build a tank that existed?

…

Please note, I already have two Dragon M4A2 Tarawa models, an Italeri M32, some three bar cleat tracks, and decals for “Queen of Beauty”. I also have a Dragon Sherman III Sicily. I cannot remember what combination is correct. Maybe none of those combinations is correct.

[barkingdigger]

Now that’s a tricky list! You’d need to find photos of the named tanks to work out what to use - none of them ring a bell with me. You mention both the Tarawa and Sicily kits - the Sicily one fixes the big issues with the earlier Tarawa upper hull so is a better starting point.

On the use of the Italeri M4A1 hul and DML 75mm turret, see here:[TMP] "M4A1 (75mm) W - did it exist?" Topic. The concensus is that the only ones known were the DD tanks, so you’d need to do some serious converting!

[ericadeane]

An issue with the Italeri M32 turret is it is misshapen. The rear of the turret is too narrow. The Asuka/Tasca one is accurately shaped. You could try to get a sprue or scratchbuild one yourself. LMK if you’d be interested in accurate drawings.

[Damraska]

@barkingdigger

Now that’s a tricky list! You’d need to find photos of the named tanks to work out what to use - none of them ring a bell with me. You mention both the Tarawa and Sicily kits - the Sicily one fixes the big issues with the earlier Tarawa upper hull so is a better starting point.

Thank you, Tom. I have a single picture of “Queen of Beauty”, found in a book on the 2nd New Zealand Division by Jeff Plowman. The photo is blurry.

1. The caption says it is a Sheman III
2. Solid sprockets
3. Three bar cleat tracks
4. Solid road wheels with pressed spokes?
5. Hard edge, narrow hoods?
6. Flat swept return roller arms?
7. Wide mantlet
8. Pistol port
9. Low, round, split commander’s hatch
10. Impossible to discern the transmission cover
11. No add on armor on lower hull

I have looked at the one picture a hundred times and built a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa. To me, it looks like the same tank but building Shermans is dangerous.

If I recall correctly, the two major issues with the Dragon M4A2 Tarawa are the diver hoods and engine deck grills. The first is easy to fix. The latter requires a microscope to figure out and I have resin replacement grills anyway.

That is all I have on this one.

@barkingdigger

On the use of the Italeri M4A1 hul and DML 75mm turret, see here:[TMP] “M4A1 (75mm) W - did it exist?” Topic. The concensus is that the only ones known were the DD tanks, so you’d need to do some serious converting!

Ah ha! Thank you. I vaguely recall that discussion and doing a bunch of research on duplux drive tanks. This idea must be a dead end.

@ericadeane

An issue with the Italeri M32 turret is it is misshapen. The rear of the turret is too narrow. The Asuka/Tasca one is accurately shaped. You could try to get a sprue or scratchbuild one yourself. LMK if you’d be interested in accurate drawings.

Oh, right. Thank you, Roy. You may have answered a similar question for me, many years ago, when I first conceived the idea because your name and that information seems familiar.

Thank you for the offer of plans but I will pass. This idea is a dead end.

[Stikpusher]

@Damraska

Project 2
The goal is to build a diesel M32 tank recovery vehicle used by the US Marines in the Pacific. Was there a machine named “Alice” in this configuration?

Please note, the first few M32s used a somewhat different turret and less robust A frame boom than later ones. “Alice”? used the later turret and boom.

To make this vehicle, I want to combine a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa with an Italeri M32. Will this result in the correct configuration for “Alice”? What tracks did “Alice”? use?

Here is some good reference on M32s

M32 Shadock Site

No pictures of Alice though. However there is a good photo of Almighty

@Damraska

Project 3
Cross kitting a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa with an Italeri M32 will leave the italeri hull and the Dragon turret. Can I combine these two pieces (M4A1 large hatch with early turret, low bustle, etc.) to build a tank that existed?

The high bustle 75mm turret was created for the large hatch hulls. The move of the bustle allowed the turret to clear the new hatches in the open position. There should not be a low bustle turret on a large hatch hull. But due to overlap of item availability during Sherman mass production, you can never say never.

[Damraska]

I found my M32B2! Not “Alice”. If I recall correctly, there is an M32B2 named “Alice”, but that vehicle features the early turret like “Almighty”.

The M32B2 I eventually decided to build is named “Lulubelle”, just like the M3 from the movie “Sahara”. A single picture of this vehicle appears on the Sherman Minutia site about a quarter way down the page.

There are some potential hangups. As mentioned by Roy, the Italeri M32 turret is kinda borked. The turret requires a second low prifile commander’s split hatch. Modifying the boom mounts to fit an M4A2 instead of an M4A1 probably takes some effort.

Does anyone know of a better picture of the M32A2 “Lulubelle”? Pictures of other retrievers in the unit? A serial number?

Thinking about what Roy wrote, fixing the turret is more involved than just widening the rear. I seem to recall a pully and/or access hatch also needing work.

[Uncle-Heavy]

Sprues for the Tasca/Asuka M32

35026 / M32B1 Tank Recovery Vehicle - Asuka Model online shop

[Damraska]

@Stikpusher

The high bustle 75mm turret was created for the large hatch hulls. The move of the bustle allowed the turret to clear the new hatches in the open position. There should not be a low bustle turret on a large hatch hull. But due to overlap of item availability during Sherman mass production, you can never say never.

Thank you, Carlos! That is yet another little bit of Sherman lore that was once in the memory banks, forgotten, and now restored.

The article Tom linked does conjecture that a low bustle 75 turret may have ended up on a large hatch, not duplux drive M4A1. I could do it. Only, like, 20 guys in the world could detect my horse pucky at a glance.

Another possibility is to buy an Asuka M4A3 76 wet stowage VVSS, put the Asuka turret on the Italeri hull, the Dragon turret on the Asuka hull, and the Italeri M32 turret and stuff on the Dragon hull. I am pretty sure that would result in three fairly common vehicles. Rockin 2008 again, thinkin of doin stuff like this.

@Uncle-Heavy

Sprues for the Tasca/Asuka M32

Oh, man. I have to give this serious thought now. I could buy it but…the sprue shot. You and Roy have me seriously thinking about fixing the Italeri turret. It would be much easier than some of the nonsense I do. Thank you, Robin.

…

“Lulubelle” is an awesome M32A2 for a very specific reason–the second commander’s hatch. That is not a problem, it is a boon! With that second hatch closed, it is possible to build an M32 variant with no interior required! It also means there is no need to scratch build an entire M32 turret. One only need adjust the outer contours of the Italeri turret.

[RicardoScouts]

Hi Doug,

I went back through the references and the kits you mention, and here’s what can be said with a reasonable level of confidence.

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Project 1 – NZ M4A2 “Queen of Beauty”

Base vehicle:
“Queen of Beauty” was an M4A2 (Sherman III), diesel, VVSS, small‑hatch tank used by New Zealand forces in Italy, not a Pacific vehicle.

Dragon M4A2 Tarawa as a base:
The Dragon Tarawa kit can be used, but it needs some cleanup:

• It represents an early USMC‑specific M4A2, so you’ll want to remove or avoid Tarawa/USMC‑only features (wading details, hull hatch extensions, etc.).
• With those corrected, it works well as a generic M4A2 hull for an Italian‑theater NZ tank.

Tracks (three‑bar cleat):
Yes, three‑bar cleat (T51) tracks are entirely plausible for NZ Shermans in Italy. They are well documented on Commonwealth vehicles there, alongside T48s.

Camouflage – black or OD over beige?
This is the most debated point, but the stronger evidence supports black over beige:

• NZ disruptive schemes in Italy typically used black or a very dark colour over a Light Mud / SCC 5‑type base.
• Jeff Plowman’s work supports black, and in period B&W photos the disruptive colour reads extremely dark.
• Olive drab over beige is often a modern modelling interpretation, but it’s less firmly supported.

Bottom line: black over beige is the safest historical choice.

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Project 2 – USMC diesel M32 “Alice”

Did “Alice” exist?
Yes, there is evidence of a USMC M32 named “Alice”, based on an M4A2 (diesel) chassis in the Pacific.

Early vs late M32 features:
You’re correct that:

• Early M32s had a lighter A‑frame and different turret details.
• “Alice” appears to have had the later turret and heavier A‑frame, which matches the Italeri M32 parts.

Dragon M4A2 Tarawa + Italeri M32 = viable?
Yes — this is actually the best way to get there with the kits you have:

• Use the Dragon M4A2 hull (correct diesel base for USMC).
• Use the Italeri M32 turret and recovery gear (later pattern).
• Avoid using the Italeri hull, which is problematic for a WWII M32.

Tracks for “Alice”:
Most likely T48 rubber chevron or T49 steel chevron tracks.
Three‑bar cleats would be very unlikely on a USMC M32 in the Pacific.

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Project 3 – Leftover Italeri hull + Dragon turret

This combination (large‑hatch M4A1 hull with an early / low‑bustle turret) did exist, but:

• It represents a very rare transitional vehicle, likely late‑war or post‑factory rebuild.
• It’s plausible, but uncommon — fine as a “real but rare” build if you choose to go that route.

[Damraska]

@RicardoScouts

I went back through the references and the kits you mention, and here’s what can be said with a reasonable level of confidence.

Thank you, Ricardo. That information is definitely helpful!

…

I can only find the one blurry photo of “Queen of Beauty”. I may use my Dragon Sherman III Sicily kit for that one and save a Dragon M4A2 Tarawa to build “Destroyer”.

I found a very good picture of “Lulubelle” in the book Heavy Wrecker. “Lulubelle” is the retriever that put the Japanese tankette on the back of “Killer”. Another forum member is currently building the latter subject. I now have two good pictures of “Lulubelle”, good enough models for the job, and two options for more accurate turrets. My spares box includes an extra low profile commander’s split hatch so this project is also ready to go.

“Alice” eludes me. I remember a picture of “Alice” pictured side on in a group including one more retriever and some gun tanks. If my memory is correct, “Alice” should belong to the 3rd Marine Tank Battalion.

A large hatch M4A1 with a 75mm, low bustle turret also eludes me. The Sherman Minutia page has a photograph of a large hatch M4A3 with such a turret. The article states the corners of the low bustle were ground off so the hull hatches would clear the bustle. If I recall correctly, the article states about 100 such vehicles were made for the Military Assistance Program.

Given the unlikely nature of the vehicle, I will put the large hatch M4A1 hull and 75mm low bustle turret into spares. Maybe they will be useful, some day.

[TankCarlN3w]

I used the dragon M4A2 hull too make an M32B2