ZBL 08 and ZBL 09: Are they the same or different vehicle?

Armor/AFV Modern
1

A few years ago (2013 to be precise) I did a commission for a gentleman for the XBL09 Snow Leopard Chinese AFV. I have another gentleman asking me about doing a commission for the ZBL-10, for which he says the ZBL-09 chassis would be fine.

My curosry investiagtion has revealed that the ZBL-09 now redirects on wiki to the ZBL-08; and nowhere can I find anything to suggest that the ZBL-09 and the ZBL-08 are the same thing, since searching for either brings up imags and the occasion page.

Near as I can determine, the ZBL-08 says it was 2006 and the ZBL-09 says 2009. I am thus not sure if they are genuinely two different but remarkable similar vehicles, the latter is an upgrade of the former, or whether they are the same vehicle previously just erroneously identified or revised.

In addition, twiki tells me the ZBL-10 is based on the ZBL-08 (09?) hull, but has been modified, so itn would appear that to be accurate assuming the ZBL 09==ZBL08, I would have to modify the hull. But before I can even ask that question, it would help to determine what relationship the ZBL-08 and ZBL-09 have to each other.

I would greatly appreciate any insight.

2

08 and 09 same hull different armament. the two digits denotes the year it came into service. there are a number of variants to this hull ranging from recon, comms, ambos, command through to engineering and cargo with a hull modification to suit the task ergo the ZBL-10 (which may not exist) would have a modified hull. now I am assuming the commission is for an armoured personnel carrier as that is the only variant with 10 designator is the ZSL-10. I am unsure of how the letters work in the designation even when the vehicle have the same role, such as amphibious assault vehicles they have different names the ZBD-05 and ZLT-05 same hull, same job, different armament.

hope this helps

3

That does, help. Yes the commission is for the APC version ZSL-10 (which is what I meant to type, not ZBL-10, too many typings of ZBL back-to-back; I nearly did it twice this postā€¦)

Interestingly, there seems to be almost unilateral confusion. Wiki, as I say (which is usual pretty thorough) makes no mention of the ZBL-09 and the pictures it shows seems all to be indistinguishable from the ZBL-09 and describes, basically, the same armament as the ZBL-09 Snow Leopard (30mm cannon, coax MG, two rail missiles).

I have found one references here: https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=1079 that says the ā€œAPC version is armed only with a singleā€¦machine gun installationā€ but as it doesā€™t say, it is unclear if it means the ZSL-10. (Probably, seeing as I canā€™t find any images of the ZBL-08 with a turret that look obviously different from the ZBL-09.)

I canā€™t seem to find any sources which suggest they have different armament. (I thought perhaps it was down to a different make of 30mm autocannon; wiki said ZPT-99, but looking THAT up, it appeared to refer to the entire turret, which carried the same gun as mentioned in other sources; and that one source also said the ZPT-99 turret was supposed to have a modular launcher for four missiles, something I canā€™t find an actual photo of aside from clearly the prototype, so I surmise that may have been dropped, or at least not fitted on the ZBL 08/09.

Doing an image search, I have found more than one image that is coming up for both ZBL-08 and ZBL-09, which really doesnā€™t help, on top of not so far finding a single source that mentions bothā€¦

I am wondering then, if maybe the only effective differences between ZBL-08 and -09 is literally just the year of manufacture and some iterative, possibly internal, improvementsā€¦?

4

If a web-page describes item X with a photo and in the next sentence says that item X differs from item Y and shows a photo of item Y to describe the differences then the image search tools will show all photos from that web-page since the text says ā€˜Here is item Yā€™ and there are images there.
Pattern/Image matching may discard the photos of the designer and the the General who ordered item X (or Y) or was implicated in a corruption scandal while the items were developed.
I presume you have visited the web-pages where those conflicting photos come from.

5

https://weaponsystems.net/system/1199-ZBL08

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image1029Ɨ774 85.7 KB

Some of these web-pages say that the ZSL-10 APC has a raised roof.
Higher roof = more volume to protect = more armour = more weight = not done unless really needed.
So, when/why can it be needed? Command post, ambulance or other use where headspace or internal volume in general is required.

ArmyRecognition says medical evacuation.
Wikipedia (for ZSL-08) says APC but also mentions a Type 08 command vehicle with much higher ceiling and a Type 08 communication vehicle (based on the command version), there is also the Type 08 armoured ambulance absed on the command vehicle, Type 14 hazardous environment recon, Type 08 electronic warfare

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image892Ɨ210 15 KB

I donā€™t think any of this will help you with the build though, saying ā€˜raised roofā€™ without providing measurements or drawings doesnā€™t give much information ā€¦

6

My searches for ZSL-10 (and yes, I do check the pages) indicates that it is the version you linked above as the VN-1 (with the raised rear and HMG turret). Searching for VN-1 is just as messy; several sources indicate is the VN-1 is the the export version of the -09 (and 08?); I thought maybe the VN-1 itself was the export version of the ZSL-10, but this source: VN1 8x8 Armored Vehicle

ā€¦says there are four variants of VN-1, A to D, but none of them have the HMG and raised rear. Unless there is the base VN-1 (equates to ZSL-10) and the A to C variants?

But this source: Army Guide

suggests the VN-1 started out with the 30mm cannon when displayed.

(Which suggest to me that one Army Recognition Guide phot may be mislabelled, though in the confusion, Iā€™m not sure I can blame them.)

On top of this, some sources are saying the ZBL-09 is the same as Type-07P and also the same as ZBD-09. (I have seen at this point of ZBL-09=VN-1=ZDB-09, ZBL-09=Type-07P and Type-07P=ZBD-09.)

Like, thereā€™s three pages from ArmyRecognition Guide here:
Type 07P/ZBL-09: Army Guide
VN-1/ZBD-09: Army Guide
ZBD-09: Army Guide

with identical specifications, the middle one of which has the HMG turret and raised rear about half-way down the list of photos.

But I am really struggling with an eye that after a dozen years of doing Iā€™d like to think is reasonably well-trained to spot the differences.

(And I just found ANOTHER source (tank Encyclopedia) claiming " -ZBL 09: The basic one is the APC is armed with a simple shielded 12.7 mm gun" right next to a series picture labelled ā€œZBL-09ā€ which is very clearly the 30mm/coax/missile turretā€¦ And a final picture at the bottom labelled ā€œZBD-09 in digical camoflageā€ which is clearly identical vehicle to the image above, which is a ā€œZBL-09ā€, right down to having the same digital camoflage!

So, I think at this point, by the time Iā€™d compiled this reply, Iā€™m going to have to just pick something, because if thereā€™s a ā€œrightā€ answer, is so complicated that my customers (and my commissioner) arenā€™t going to any less confused than I am. So I will do the HMG/raised turret version (as photos) as the ZSL-10 (and as at least Dragon thought was the case) and explain the whole mess and call it my best guess.

1 Like
7

:+1:
Go for it!
I donā€™t think it would be any easier even if we tried searching in Chinese.

8

Funny you shoud say thatā€¦! Looking at the text on this page, which I canā€™t translate, Iā€™m not sure the Chineseā€¦? Koreans? are any less confused than we are:

https://imil.ifeng.com/59787123/news.shtml?&back

given the only thing I could pick out was ā€œ08式čæ˜ę˜Æ09式ļ¼Ÿā€ which looks like itā€™s asking "is than an -08 or an -09ā€¦?)

1 Like
9

Well,
there you go ā€¦