This was forwarded by Mike Starmer and posted to the thread linked above by a Track Link memeber. I copied and pasted for discussion. Sounds like Mike insists SCC 15 has a good bit of green in it?
I am forwarding this on behalf of Mike Starmer. He has asked me to do this as he is having problems logging in.
This message is exactly as it was sent to me.
Cheers
Kevin
Hi Kevin
Hope you don’t mind me contacting you. I have been reading the Cromwell blog on Track-link regarding SCC.15 Olive Drab. I have some comments to make but it would let me log in . Could you pass on the following on my behalf please, as some persons seem to have conceived misguided ideas as to the origin of paint used on British vehicles?
Firstly, the colour instructions to use SCC.15 and black on the Airfix Cromwell kit is utter rubbish. The actual colours are basic SCC.15 Olive Drab, the dark areas and what may be German Dunklegelb as the lighter areas. I have seen original pictures of this tank in Prague and have them on file. The Czechs were a holding force around Dunkirk and probably added the ‘sand’ colour on the tanks nearest the beach areas. Notice that all the white markings are on the darker areas which is the basic colour. Humbrol 159 khaki drab is far too light and yellow to use as SCC.15 Olive Drab. It is intended to be used for British soldiers battle dress colour, it was originally in Humbrol’s long defunct Authentics Uniform Colours range
SCC.15 was formulated by British chemical companies during 1943 for use in the forthcoming operations in NWE to replace the current SCC.2 (brown) then in use. It was not cobbled up from cellulose based US air force paint, the component specifications are completely different for enamel paint on vehicles. Olive Drab No.9 for ground force use and Dark Olive Drab No.41 for the USAAF are different in hue and tone. The air force colour is more green than No.9 and formulated to different specifications.
SCC.15 is an equivalent, NOT match to the American colour. It is a dark yellow-green, noticeably green, compared to the US O/D No.9. My Tamiya mix was formulated against an original BS.987 colour standard. It is not 100% exact since more than three colours is about the most that modellers could manage, but it is near enough on a model.
As for model paint company products, these seem to be using their own ideas or copying another company’s colour idea simply based on the name ‘olive drab’. AK definitely messed up despite my sending a large card sample which I tweaked to be more accurate. The best alternative mix I found yet is Vallejo 70888 and 70294 in equal parts.
Kind Regards
Mike S
BTW - I’m liking British WW2 armor more and more as it’s looking like there’s real “wiggle zone” of color fidelity very similar to German WW2 AFV’s. The comments of possibly German dark yellow being added on that specific tank mentioned above just adds to the interest.
A British model tank with SCC 15 Olive Drab that’s fairly close to Panzer Olivgrun RAL 6003 plus an overspray of something fairly close to Panzer Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 - that’s intriguing as a possible project.
took a while but this is some take outs from a warpaints book which I took some photocopies from before I ebayed it. If this is incorrect it would be interesting to know
Colour guides based on British Standard Colour documents declassified in 1984
1939 Three colour disruptive pattern
Middle bronze green No23 BS381 1930 with disruptive colours in
Dark Bronze green no24 BS381 1930 and/or
Light bronze green no22 BS381 1930
1939 BEF
Khaki green No3 BS 381-1939 FORMERLY No 23
Dark green No 4 BS 381-1939 FORMERLY No 24
Light green No5 BS 381-1939 FORMERLY No 22
The ONLY difference was the BS numbers were changed to 1939, paints were the same colour as previously
UK 1941 Two Colour Disruptive Pattern
Khaki Brown No2 BS 987C-1942 Base colour
Dark Earth No1 BS 987C-1942 Disruptive Pattern
UK 1942 and 1943 Patterns
1942 Khaki Green No7 BS 381-1939 base colour
1943 Khaki Brown no2 BS 987c-1942
NW Europe 1944 two colour pattern
Kjaki green No15 BS 987c-1942
Black disruptive pattern
1945 NW europe
Deep Bronze Green No 24 BS 381-1942
I have left out all the Africa/italy patterns/far east patterns
edit note that 1942 khaki green would therefore be middle bronze green same as BEF colours are all bronze green, just new names and 1939 BS change
2nd edit what then would deep bronze green be in 1945?
i have some paint numbers also written down somewhere but have not put my hands on them, boxed up somewhere when i moved house
Khaki Green No7 BS 381-1939 was a bituminous emulsion paint. It was the base colour for canvas tilts used on vehicles 1941-42 due to waterproofing requirements, but it was not a base colour for vehicle painting.
Post war ‘Deep Bronze Green No 24’ was indeed the same colour as pre war No 24. This paint was a gloss colour and was determined to have better qualities and longer life before repaint than the late wartime matt paints. There is an excellent article on post was green here:
Yes so true Peter. Very interesting stuff on the British paint. I will definitely be checking back to this thread for reference regarding WW2 British armor
Sorry to hijack this thread. But on the subject of British war time AFV paint colors, what color was khaki green No.3 I ordered ak real colors Khaki green and it’s much more brown than I thought it would have been. Does anyone have a good reference for the color?
The AK Real Colors Khaki Green #3 is accurate stuff. I felt the exact same way when I opened my first bottle - hey this is brown! But after I shot the model with it, it was definitely a khaki green. Exhibit A:
Okay cool! Thanks, that is exactly the look i want. When my order arrived I opened the bottle, and thought they had sent the wrong paint, I checked the label and realized it was the right paint, I stirred the crap out of it and it still looked brown. Good to know it dries green
Probably a paper pushing engineer or bureaucrate was involved. Some of those love to justify their positions by making unnecessary changes. I’ve seen those sorts do the change - change back dance six times in a row just to trying to appear to be doing something to justify their paychecks to their clueless superiors in an American manufacturing environment with American management. I’ve also see that trick tried with a Dutch/German manager - who promptly fired the lot of them
Great job on that tank Matt! Ram ??
And is the AK real color series acrylics? So this color would be correct for most/all British vehicles in WW2 up to 1941? I’m a little confused.
The real colors (I haven’t used them yet, but will soon) look awesome. They have a ton of unique colors, and they apparently spray very well. I plan to use their German gray this weekend and probably the Khaki green the weekend after!
They changed from green to SCC2 because it used chromium oxide, of which there was a shortage. Brown was less consumptive of critical resources.
It’s the same reason why blue replaced green in the naval Western Approaches scheme.
The post-war switch to DBG was at least partly because gloss colours are easier to keep clean and in peacetime, camouflage and concealment are less important.
