NATO vs WP, 1970s

Can’t answer for Finland.
In Sweden we “knew” that the WP (the Soviet units) would like to cut across Sweden to reach the Atlantic fast and try to open the gap between Norway and Iceland to get out into the Atlantic to cut the trans Atlantic supply lines.
How does the Soviet Baltic fleet get out into the Atlantic? In the narrow gap between Sweden and Denmark(NATO), ownership of the Swedish shore makes this a lot easier.
The Soviet troops need to take southern Sweden to exit the Baltic and control the Swedish west coast.
They need to cut across the middle of Sweden to slice through Norway at the narrowest point and they need to take northern Sweden to protect the bases for their northern fleet and secure the exit to the Atlantic.
South and centre is assaulted across the Baltic, north implies crossing Finland and will inevitably drag Finland into the war so southern Finland needs to be taken to protect Leningrad.

The west coast of Sweden:
As soon as the Swedish naval staff found out about the reach of the first generations of submarine launched ballistic missiles (Polaris??) they knew that the sand bottoms of the Swedish west coast would be contested waters. US subs could/would use them to reach Moscow, Soviet subs would be there to chase US subs. We would have to be there to protect our waters. The nearest NATO navies would have to focus on hunting Soviet subs.

We would NOT have been able to stay out of the war. NATO and the US knew this. The USSR knew it. The Swedish military and politicians knew it. Everyone in Sweden with some military insight (we all served our conscript period) knew it. The official Swedish policy or official lie, which only a few naive pacifists actually believed in, was that we could stay neutral.
Now we are trying to join NATO, turning our decade long “cohabitation” with NATO into an official “marriage”.

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Yeah, I was sorta hoping it never got to that. I was on a Green Light team in the early 80’s. We carried the SADM, the famed “backpack nuke.” We were pretty sure the timers didn’t really work.
Surprisingly, that school is listed in my ARB.

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With Mao still in charge there was no telling what could happen in a shooting war between his two main rivals. After the whole ‘opening up’ thing during the Nixon era it might have looked to the USSR like there might be some ‘issues’ with their neighbour if war came with NATO.

However, China was a fairly industrially backward nation until well into the 80s and the ramifications of the Cultural Revolution bit deep into society. Their war with Vietnam in 1979 made it plainly obvious their military was not in a fit shape for any war and they spent the better part of the next decade trying to reform only to be shocked once again watching ODS which really set a fire under the reform program.

Mao’s death likely brought the possibility of a war between China and Russia to an end. If they had indeed got involved there would likely have been a sort of ‘pressure relief’ from the European front but the state of their military may not have been up to all that much.

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The joke here in Sweden was that the Chinese army would start by letting a million soldiers or more surrender to cause logistics problems with guarding, feeding and transporting more than a million POW’s.

Zhenbao Island.

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I think Red Dawn even hits on this, thoughts that they would actually join in against the Soviets after the opening of relations with the west was feasible.

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Well since the whole attack plan of the WP was made public a coupple years back, we dont have to guess. Just a coupple of points : 1. The plan was short (less than 50 pages, one might say a bit dummed-down). 2. No plan for a WP coordination, only about 50 people in the whole WP knew about the plan. 3. Expectation of 50+ km advance a day (yeah sure ;). 4. No plans for logics, which is not surprising since every single Russian offensive since 1914 always dies after 100kms due to logistic. You also have to take into account that a lot of units were equipped with stuff like T34 or Mig15 into the late 70s, radios were junk, swimming equipment was not realy swimming (A lot of drowned crews during exercuses, A LOT). No spare parts, HUGE black market and theft of vital car parts. No combat experience, stupid party nominated officers on all levels. Lack of training due to a poor state of the econony, soldiers were often send to dig potatos. WP countries didnt trust each other, they were relying on imports from the west for everything from coffe to radio parts. And Germans wouldnt fight Germans. I saw this stuff guys. It was a shitshow.

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Having done Soviet studies in the Army which tends to be a little less jingoistic, and goes into a bit more depth as to why the Warsaw pact was formed and why the Russians had a huge standing army. The 70s and early 80s Soviet army was quite a different beast to what emerged towards the end. Every CPX ended with the deployment of nukes, you only have to look at the list of western cities to be nuked by the US to realise that forces stationed in Germany were speed bumps in the hope of delaying until reinforcements could arrive or the nukes started flying. During my time I was less worried about the Soviets attacking and more bothered that they would be provoked, thankfully it never came to either and cooler heads prevailed.

With respect I am not sure this is entirely true; it is certainly not reflected by the military mission reports regularly presented at the time.

I have to say at this point I have not seen any iteration of any plan of Soviet/Warsaw Pact, though understand it is now easily available.

In the late 70s as far as I recall the units of GSFG were fully equipped with T-62 and T-55, but T-64 began to be delivered from the early 70s, (possibly earlier) although would take some time to replace T-62 in Soviet units. One may have found T-34s in reserve stockpiles but generally, not least with the introduction of T-64, and T-72, Soviet and WP forces were equipped with a particularly lethal AFV. Those countries’ arsenals that didn’t have T-72 yet, would still have possessed comprehensive T-54/T-55 AFV fleets. Ditto Mig 15s, which I’m sure would be stockpiled somewhere, but even the 2nd Eleven (if you like) countries would by the timescale have largely had at least Mig 21s (and others)in their arsenal.

Certainly, troops were rotated from units to assist in the annual harvests, but this had been the norm for some decades.

I feel the large-scale exercises, “Brothers in Arms” series for example, actually gave an impression of no small coordination between Soviet and Warsaw Pact armies.

I would refer readers to the comments I made a year ago on this thread:

“From the late 70s to the end of the Soviet bloc, there were qualitative improvements in most of their arsenal. General Zaitsev - Commander GSFG 1980-85 - in particular accelerated the introduction of very capable equipments and also made doctrinal and organisational advancements such as establishing Operational Manoeuvre Groups.

The military liaison missions in East Germany continuously observed and reported on all of this and NATO had every right to be worried, as indeed, it was. GSFG (later WGF) was a very capable organisation; they were well equipped, undertook rigorous training, well led (within the confining strictures of the Communist system) and I suspect would have ultimately prevailed. I think NATO would not have made it easy for them, but would, as I say, go nuclear quite soon.

GSFG/WGF was a very different beast to today’s Russian Army.

The exercises I was involved in at Army Group level normally went “nuclear” after around 5-6 days. That of course, was within the exercise scenarios, but these documents were carefully drafted, and drew on lots of experience and hard-won intelligence.”

This not to deify Soviet troops by any means, but they and their WP comrades were well equipped generally; as for their training, there is a tendency to compare directly with NATO methodologies, but this is to compare apples with pears. Just because training methods appear perhaps cumbersome and unimaginative it doesn’t mean they are less than effective. They were of course, dealing with conscripts, but by and large, so were NATO.

I quote here from an account given of a briefing for potential military mission (Brit) operatives:

“He was advertised as a specialist from Ashford (British Army’s intelligence centre) dealing with all aspects of the Warsaw Pact. He made us look at the West’s military capability from the Soviet point of view. He disagreed that Soviet equipment was inferior. He disagreed that learning tactics by rote was necessarily a handicap. He argued strongly that superiority of numbers alone might carry the day. He introduced the Soviet concept of reinforcing success and abandoning failure. He implied that it was by no means certain that we would win an encounter with the Warsaw Pact”.

As I say, I am not putting the Soviet/WP forces on a pedestal (somewhat, on occasion, akin to devotees of the Wehrmacht perhaps) but the forces stated in East Germany presented a very real and deadly threat throughout the Cold War.

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Yeah, totally agree with all that Brian. The Sov block and WP frontline forces all had the current in date equipment and they were massive formations compared to ours.

As an example, my Regt, the Blues & Royals, then a type 43 Cr1 MBT Regt was directly the blocking force against the 3rd Shock Army (yes, a Regt against an Army group !!) in layman’s terms thats 43 Chally 1’s and 2 Inf Battalions against … 4 Russian Tank Divisions with a combined 14 Tank Regiments and god knows how many infantry battalions… to say we were outnumbered is a slight understatement.

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My Bundeswehr time was Oct. 1985 - Sep. 1989, my unit was the PzBtl 83 in Lüneburg, about 50 km away from the inner-german border. Lüneburg was the base of a whole brigade (PzBrig 8) in 3 garrisons, about 5000 soldiers. So in a case of military conflict we would have been the first at the front. Our unit had 39 Leopard 2A4 in 3 companies, the most modern tank of that time. In my first year I was a gunner/loader on that tank. I’m pretty sure I would not have survived the first 48 hours of a conflict … But I’m sure in the end NATO would have stopped WP. Germany would have been the main battle field and the river Rhine would have been the line to stop the WP troops if it wouldn’t go all nuclear.

Meanwhile I know quite a few guys in the Leipzig area because of model shows there and they are all about my age and had their 2 year service in the Nationale Volksarmee. During the shows we were often talking about our army times in east and west. And I noticed that in the NVA they made about the same nonsense as we did. One guy once said “We were afraid of you and you were afraid of us. That’s why nothing happened.” In the 1980’s the NVA had a strength of 170.000 soldiers, the Bundeswehr had 500.000.

One nice episode I remember on a Leipzig show was several years ago one evening during eating when I sat next to a czech exhibitor who spoke no german and only a little english. He told me that he was a driver on a T-72 in the 1980’s and I made him understand that I was a gunner on a Leopard 2 in the same time. He smiled, hugged me and just called me “Brother!” Than we both laughed.

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In moments of complete and utter fantasy, I sometimes used to dream that if soldiers of the opposing nations sat down, showed off their kit and had a beer, then perhaps there would be no conflict; but then, given the carnaptious nature of British soldiers (let alone others, but specifically Brits) who will fight themselves even if there are others in the firing line, I realized that it would remain, forever, a fantasy.

I probably shouldn’t say it but I still miss my Cold War(!)

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I have admit it as well Brian that I miss that time ( Erlangen, Germany 85-87), and we Americans would also fight amongst ourselves from time to time.

@Naseby any chance you can direct us to that document, it would be a great read. Very insightful stuff here.

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Yeah, modellers of all nations unite! :+1:

In 2020 during Covid 19, when it was difficult to travel anywhere, I went on vacations to Königstein in Saxony to see the beautiful Saxon-Bohemian Switzerland. My plans for 2020 were originally Lithuania … And I drove to a nice small aircraft museum near Görlitz. Really a lovely little museum with exhibits from east and west (a MiG 21 beside a F-86 and so on). Accidently I could talk to one of the museum guys there (probably in his early 70’s) who turned out to have been a NVA tank commander on a T-55 in the 1970’s. So another ex-tanker. We chatted for quite a while and he said that he would not have been interested in a war between East and West Germany. He said “In that case I would have driven with my tank directly to the first DIY store in West Germany to get all the stuff for my house I don’t get here!” :laughing:

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Not far fetched in the least:

Interestingly, Bill Richardson just passed three days ago.
I met him on one of my eight trips to Korea. We (SOCKOR) had sort of a think tank and he was our guest speaker one year. He told us how we had gotten more HUMINT on the NorKs from Dennis Rodman than our intelligence agencies had been able to get in decades. He opened up the floor to suggestions on how we might open a dialog with them as Nixon had done with the Chinese. My first thought was to suggest somehow putting on a Homebuilt Motorcycle Show in Pyongyang. When they all saw what Americans were able to build in their garages it might cause that same sort of envy the East Germans felt when they watched the Schwarze Kanal. And look how that turned out. Could I see two reunifications during my career? Of course that idea was even more far fetched than yours, so I reamined silent on that one.
What I did suggest was this. I stood, introduced myself, and briefly explained the Mission’s purpose in the DDR. Why then, could we not do something similar here? They’re certainly not going to let our troops drive around this People’s Democratic Republic, as the Germans had done, so why not make it unilateral? Let them come over and see anything they wanted. And by that I meant even the JOC located at the Special Warfare Center, where joint US/Korean Special Forces worked together. I had been the NCOIC of that JOC three times. Let them observe an exercise based on our perspective. That the entire exercise presupposes they they attack us first, and that we were not the agressors. (surely they would believe it was propaganda, but once inside that JOC they’d start to get a feeling for what they might be in for.)
Richardson said the idea was very intriguing, but that they’d never go for it. I’m sure he was right, but it was fun to think about them actually seeing an M1A2 or a K2 up close. They’d have had a lot to chew on, just like those Russians in Berlin.

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Reminds me:
I was a programmer for the naval command & control systems on the Swedish coastal corvettes

and we occasionally got some feedback from naval exercises.
One story is from some joint excercise (Partnership for Peace??) in the Baltic.
Russian naval brass visited one of the Swedish ships and were shown the command & control centre where the consoles displayed the situation overview for the sea around the ship.
One of the Swedish officers who knew enough Russian to be eavesdropping heard the Russians comment that the display was fake, they didn’t believe that we had the technology to display real time radar et.c data with that quality. The Swedish officer just smiled inwardly, “If only they knew the rest that we are not showing…”

Other feedback was about Swedish submarines playing hide and seek with the US Navy.
US commander claims that there was no submarine in his designated search area.
The Swedish sub-commander responds by showing a photo of the stern of the US ship, taken through the periscope when the Swedish sub had sneaked up into the wake of that frigate. The angles between objects on the frigate showed that the sub was really close behind the stern …
The usual method for the Swedish sub to indicate their presence was by simulating a torpedo launch (blow air out of the tube)

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Following on Torsten remarks on the former DDR members,
The Wife and I use to host visitors, from around the world, through hospitality and couch surfing, 2008 till 2012, then grandkids started, so stopped hosting.
We had a family from around Dresden who visited, the kids spoke English, ( they booked it, showing parents its better, to go with the natives )
mum and dad, had never been schooled, in another language,

once he found out I was Ex military, after checking out my models and pictures, he started asking lots of question as he was an Engineer Officer for 10 years, when the wall was still up, he was surprised at how much I had travelled, as a junior rank, compared to his service.

(Just waiting for the grammer police) :crazy_face:

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Most other armies are surprised at how much latitude US Army NCO’s have in decision making - even some western armies. In SF it’s even more pronounced. The O on the team is there to sign for sh!t. We pretty much run everything.

Oh, he’s around. Just not emerging from his burrow much lately. (sentence fragment) :roll_eyes:

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