Even AI is just as confused as say, the old Osprey book regarding the so-called “Panther II ausf. F.”
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Thank you everyone for the help.
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Panther 2 hull, panther G turret
Video of Panther 2 driving
Differences between Panther 2 and Panther G
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Some nice pics. I watched the youtube video of the Panther II tank museum & it was informative. Especially the added armour info. There are drawings I heard but what type of armament did these drawings use? Was the drawing an L70 with a muzzle break? Thx again to everyone for all the great info & links.
I really like the looks of the Panther II. So..it would also use the Maybach HL230 as well ?
The two outward bubbles on the short turret , near the top on both sides…is for a range finder?
How on earth would they get an 88mm in that lil turret??
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The Panther F turret never had a 88mm installed.
It remains an uphill battle to disabuse such fantasies as the late Tom Jentz termed them.
Seems the Spielberger book fueled quite a bit of these misconceptions: Panther II hulls with Schmalturms and so on.
Mockups at Daimler-Benz demonstrated the impracticality of mounting an 88mm main gun as well as loading main rounds would be difficult.
The chassis number painted on the Panther II — anyone know if this is legitimate or is it mere conjecture?
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Looking at the example turret at Bovington, it’s a wonder the crew fit in, let alone ammo! And it’s interesting to see it still complete in old pics - it clearly took a catastrophic hit as part of some testing, to get in the shape it is now…
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This is a Panther G under going trials for a flame
Self defence weapon in 1945
It has the late spare wheel mounts on the turret.
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I get it, but you can clearly see the two separate bracket pieces which cast two separate shadows on the Panther F turret.
So I contend this was a new spare wheel bracket developed at D-B.
But you could get away with the semicircular bracket on a What If? model of course. Why not?
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I’m relieved to hear it; I’d always thought the idea fantastic, just by looking at the respective components: viz gun (breech), turret, and crew.
I remain very interested in the F version, and admit to having a couple of the Dragon kits in the stash, all earmarked for some 3rd Reich '46 sort of stuff when, when, I get around to it.
I know I should really go back and trawl the thread, but I’m assuming we are saying that the Schmalturm was/could be fitted to the Ausf F?
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That new turret is the defining feature of the Panther F.
Also, the Dragon Panther F is probably my favorite model to date. I also want to build some more and go even more crazy with them.
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Yes it definitely has a two piece brackets,
Maybe they just designed a simple design using
Less material ?
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I’m sort of waiting for a gap in my modelling programme - I’ve far too much on the go at the moment, but the lure of What-If can be strong! 3rd Reich '46 - Leibermuster camouflage uniforms. East German pat helmets, Stg 44s, and of course, Panther F - where will it all end?!
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Yeah. I have the same inclination. I just ordered one of the ModelCollect Fist or War tanks to give that a try.
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Talk about great minds thinking alike and all that; I have plans to depict the following kit:
as a so-called “Tiger III”.
In this mad What-If world I envisage Panther Fs being the mainstay of the Panzer Divisions but the heavy Tank battalions equipped with Tiger IIIs. This hobby could drive you mad(!)
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That is the one I purchased!
The selling point for me, versus other tanks in the series, is that it comes with two complete sets of road wheels. I can use those to build a second tank or add some extra wheels to an E-50.
If Dragon Panther Fs and Fist of War E-60s can swap turrets, it opens up a bunch of additional possibilities.
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I’ll be honest, tempted as I was by all the others in the range, including massive 128mm guns, I realised - though far from a technical bent - that most would have been impossible; there was no way, I thought, that the massive 128-milly could ever fit in some of the turrets modelled. I thought that this one, with a 105mm shoehorned into what was approaching a King Tiger-ish turret might just be feasible. Feasible of course, being a relative term when it comes to What-Ifs!
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Ooooooh. All the ModelCollect E-60s have quirks but I did not consider that one! The one I ordered has a 128mm barrel. Fortunately, I have lots of spare gun barrels.
For real fun, ModelCollect released an E-60 with two 128mm guns. It reminds me of a space tank from Space Battleship Yamato.
I wonder if a short barrel 105 would fit inside a Panther F turret.
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I mean the 128mm had 2-piece ammo, so even loading the thing in the turrets Modelcollect would have you believe, stretches any plausibility I feel, but then, I suspect they’re not necessarily pursuing any such credibility in any case - which is fair enough in a way.
I’m not too sure about a 105 - nor if the ammo was 2 piece - I appreciate that any 2 piece Flak ammo need not necessarily be utilised for an AFV; I shouldn’t think it would fit in the Panzer F turret, (and admit to not having looked that closely at the moment either) and in the interests of, well, any, say backstory, I think most would agree that the Kwk 42 L/70 was more than adequate in taking on practically all of the Reich’s enemies, and prevail, probably even in any 1946 scenario.
Moot point though.
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A comparison of turret ring diameters is very interesting. Please note, I pulled these numbers off the internet.
Panther D: 1600mm
Panther G/F: 1650mm
Tiger I: 1500mm
Tiger II: 1750mm
Turrets with a protruding front face can take the 88. Those with a more flat front face cannot. This makes sense. The trunnions of a long gun need to sit far enough forward to accommodate the recoil throw of the gun inside the turret ring.
With a 105mm or 128mm gun, the trunnions will need to sit even further forward. However, if gun designers can compact the entire weapon, usually by packaging the recoil mechanism into a smaller volume, it can sit in a smaller turret. Since we are wandering off into conjectural history territory, maybe that happened.
All of the ModelCollect turrets are of the long face variety so…maybe?
If nothing else, the Germans could copy the Russians and do what they did.
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