Panzer Gunnery School

The TC was probably using the headphones to communicate with range control.

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That is a good possibility… As the real images don’t reveal everything, they could well of had a Comms feed buried in to a “range control type bunker” using a live open mic … That could also have included a live buried electric power source to power a low output motor in the turret bunker to replicate a hydraulic feed that the real tanks would of had ??

Here is the introduction, from the manual, of the exercise chapter:


B. Gunnery training exercises with the 8.8 cm Kw. K. 36 of the AFV VI (Tiger).

(The gunnery training exercises are incorporated into the manual “Procedures for gunnery training in a tank battalion”.)

  1. The gunnery training exercises are the basis for gunnery in combat.

During the gunnery training exercises, the crew should learn how to use the gunnery rules. They are trained to aim accurately, to estimate ranges and to be quick in operating the weapon and the aiming devices. They also serve to accustom the crew to sharp shooting and to familiarize them with the characteristics of their 8.8 cm Kw. K. 36.
The tank crew executes the gunnery training exercises in their intended order. If sufficient ammunition is available, the tank commander and gunner should be replaced and the gunnery training exercises repeated.


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That’s basic gunnery 101 … :+1:

It also looks like Putlos is still or was until recently a gunnery type training area looking at Google maps ?

This sure looks fanrastic, very nicely done with groundwork and figures… and that background makes it look so real :+1::+1::+1:

And here is the most challenging of the four exercises. Note the description of where the target is. There’s no mention of traversing the turret in any exercise.


29. 4th exercise: - Main gun – firing with AP at a transversely moving target

Exercise : Stationary tank, main gun, range 800 m - 1200 m, 3 AP rounds fired at a moving target, 20 km/hr, transverse motion, travel distance of the target: 150m, firing time: 30 seconds.

Requirement : 1 hit.

Purpose: Learning to lead and report targets that are moving transversely and learning how to improve the aiming point from observation.

Gunners: tank crew.

Location: outdoors.

Target: Tank target on a sled (about 4m long, about 2m tall including turret).

AFV.: The AFV stands ready for action with the direction of fire at “12 o’clock” 800 m – 1200 m from the middle of the target’s path. The main gun is unlocked. The tank commander supervises the activities of the crew from his seat.

Procedure :
The tank commander orders the loader:

“AP round! Load and lock!"

The loader reports after complying:

“AP round loaded and locked!"

The tank commander orders the gunner:

“AP round! – 12 o’clock! – 900! (range determined by the tank commander) – Tank! – 8 marks! (lead distance determined by the tank commander) – Fire!"

The loader opens the gun safety switch.

The gunner fires the first shot, observes the glowing trail and impact and shouts the observation to the tank commander. The tank commander orders the adjustment.

The following shots are fired with any necessary improvements under the direction of the tank commander (item 19).

Before firing the final shot, the tank commander gives the order: "Free the gun!

The gunner fires the loaded shot.

The loader leaves the gun unloaded after the shot has been fired and reports when the breech block is open: “Gun empty!”

The tank commander orders: “Muzzle up!”


All gunnery will start with basic static shooting at stationary tgt’s by simply laying the gun on and firing. You will slowly progress to moving tgts. There is a known method of engagement of the ambush technique where you estimate the tgt speed, direction of travel and lay your gun on an estimated point where the tgt will appear in your sight and you will fire.
Gunners and Commanders would not solely of relied on the ambush technique for moving targets, they would of used turret traverse at some point to track and engage so, please take it as a 100% guarantee that at some point the gunners would of used the turret controls to slowly track a tgt and then use a lead point left or right and fire…
I have done this as a gunner and tank commander and basic gunnery is basic gunnery. Things are only different in today’s tanks as you can use full IFCS or if needed fall back to old school and manually track and engage tgt’s.

The exercise that I posted, does use the turret’s manual traverse wheel - remember, it’s a moving target.

The question we’re discussing (I think) is whether the power traverse was also used. Not in this exercise book, as I can see. And I suspect the best way to practise that device is in a complete training-school Tiger.

David

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That’s clearer now and I get that. :+1:

I was trying to bring out another lIF… Knowing the German way of training and their desire for perfection where possible … IF the training gunnery turrets did have a means of buried Comms or power cables, to replicate a Hydraulic assist in traverse, would they have incorporated one ? I’m now thinking of best practice and lessons learnt. In a training environment like that, you would ideally want a 1 to 1 of the real thing for realism…and a power assist traverse would be used to get from one tgt to another to speed up engagement times.

It’s interesting to think about it as it’s the first time I had ever seen the training turrets above and coming from a tank background I’m now thinking what I would want to achieve good realistic training for a combat scenario :thinking: :+1:

I agree with Johnny, In my opinion the turrets would have been as close to a production turret as possible, this includes all communications equipment. In fact I see no reason as to why those turrets weren’t production turrets at least up until resources were starting to become scarce as the war progressed. So if the production turret had a hydraulic traverse then really the training turret would have also, with the caveat of scarcity.
In terms of comms again I imagine the training turrets would have been to production standards, as troop fire control would need to be practiced (Notwithstanding what we are seeing in Ukraine tanks never operate alone) and so comms would be needed to other turrets/commanders although that may have been achieved through telephone comms to save resources.
In the British Army (and I imagine others also) a fire order is designed to instill “an automatic response to a familiar order” basically meaning things become second nature and are done almost without thinking, and THAT takes a lot of training using equipment as close to the real deal as possible.

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A very nicely done model.

Regarding the kitting out of the turret trainers/power etc, I must say I think it counter-intuitive for the Germans to have invested in so much effort to produce a half-decent trianing aid and not to kit it out say, with power or even comms. I feel the comms would be vital if only from a C2/safety point of view. It just doesn’t make any sense - even financial - to skimp on what would have been a comprehensive effort in the first place.

'Just my 2 Reichmarks worth(!)

In my opinion the turrets would have been as close to a production turret as possible

The two turrets in the WW2 photo actually ARE production turrets.
They came from Tigers retired from service on the front (with s.Pz.Abt.503).
The implication is that the Germans were not spending big money to make a perfect simulator.
The school is making do with leftovers.

this includes all communications equipment.

Communication equipment in the Tiger’s turret consisted of two socket boxes where you could plug in your headset.
They were wired to the actual intercom switchbox / amplifier - which was down in the hull.
So, even if you had the usual communication gear of a turret, it wouldn’t do anything.
You would have to add an intercom switchbox and change the wiring.

if the production turret had a hydraulic traverse then really the training turret would have also

Probably they did have that gearbox on the floor.
But it required an engine to drive it.
Normally it used a power takeoff from the tank’s main engine.
So, once again, you won’t get the functionality unless you add something expensive.
And I don’t think there was a real need for an intercom or traverse in these turret stands - based on the exercise procedures laid out by the Germans themselves.

comms would be needed to other turrets/commanders

That was normally done by radio, not by intercom. The radio set was in the hull
So that’s yet another expensive system that doesn’t come built-in with these turrets.
A field telephone system could have been used, but really, is there a point? You can’t practice combined manoeuvres in a concrete box.

David

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It’s not about practicing vehicle movement as that can be done on any training area or indeed the general countryside and does not need you to be able to fire weapons. What you need to be able to do is control the troop/platoons fire so two tanks don’t engage the same target and possibly leave one to fire back.

This is what I used for M60A1s

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Very similar concept to our 120mm GTSs…

Nice job! A very seldom seen subject.

These were hard wired for electrical if I remember correctly but it’s been decades. Notice that students can stand on the edge and look into the turret while the instructor is teaching.

My two cents: the headphones look cool, and while there may yet be live eyewitnesses to that training area that could testify to whether comms were present and headphones used, they aren’t likely to be on this page - and anyone else without photographs is guessing. Go with the cool, call it artists privilege, drive on.

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I bought several landscape photo posters from Amazon, and use them for my photos. Easy but effective.

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Very good! I love the idea of using lego’s for the concrete base.

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