Hello all,
I picked up AFV Club’s 35159 (Sho’t 1967 version) and 35106(British Mk.5), hoping to build both as IDF versions (with original engines, i.e., Sho’t Meteor (?), not as Sho’t Kals).
I compared the plastic and other parts on both, and the biggest problem is the lack of the 105mm L7 barrel without the thermal sleeve. The extra sprues in the IDF kit are for the .50 cal and its mount as well as the IDF fuel/water cans/mounts, which would be easy to source from the spares. I am also not sure if all early IDF Centurion conversions got or kept the .50 cal, and the kit has the .30 cal in both kits. The British Mk.5 comes with the 20pdr. barrel only, but still has the L7 barrel sleeve parts in plastic.
This kit and conversion was recently discussed in a previous post here, but not fully answered. So, my first question is which barrel is the correct one to buy if I went the aluminum barrel route? Looking at scalemates and spruebrothers etc., there seems to be a bunch of L7 barrels without the thermal sleeve meant for Leopards, M60s, Centurions and even Tirans, but nothing specific for the early IDF Centurion that looks like the one in AFV Club kit (the barrel shape on the IDF Centurion kit looks different, as it seems to be tapering/thinning into the fume extractor from the mantlet). Alternatively, is there a way to buy that metal barrel part from the 35159 kit directly from AFV Club in the US, which would be the easiest solution? Their customer service seems to be Taiwan focused, and they don’t offer that specific barrel as a separate aftermarket set.
If I went the plastic route, would there be an M60, M48, Leopard etc. kit that would have had the same barrel I could use or modify (i.e., Academy Magachs come with extra sleeveless barrels)? I think the answer is no, because and all US tanks are using the M68 variant of the L7 with the accordion sleeve in front of the mantlet, and the shape is different (not tapering etc.).
Second big question is the lack of instructions on how to make a 5/1 out of the IDF kit for option A. If the difference between the 5 and 5/1 is the mantlet with 2 co-axial guns (according to wikipedia), I think the kit already provides two mantlets, but it is not specified in the instructions.
Would the dozer in the British kit work for the IDF version? I saw one early(?) IDF Centurion with a dozer but it looked different, like it is split/reinforced in the middle).
Finally, the previous thread was talking about the rear engine deck for an extended fuel tank. Is this really necessary for the early IDF Centurions for the Six Day War period?
Thanks in advance
Deniz
You want an L7 105 mm, not an M68, although if all you can find is an M68 you can modify it.
Honestly, I don’t even know there I got the barrel for that build in your link, but no one ever questioned it. It was the first I’d ever seen that managed to get almost everything right. Many modelers were just throwing a 105 on it without the hull modification or the louvres.
Then when Accurate-Armour came out with theirs they didn’t put a plate over the extended fuel tanl as they should have.
No, it is not. You can find photos without it. However, from what I’ve gathered, unlike the US Army which may carry out MWO’s piecemeal over a period of years, the IDF seems to have added all of their upgrades at one time. Why not? Keep the vehicle in the shop as little as possible.
So - if it was upgraded to the 105 mm gun, it will have had the fuel tank extended, and louvers added to the transmission covers. And I believe at the same time the two water cans were added to the turret rear, possible even as a quick visual aid.
Ah, don’t forget the glacis armor as well.
Ahh, now I feel dumb, I should have paid more attention to all the reviews and pictures. What I had been thinking was the L7 barrel in the IDF kit is actually the “20pdr Type B” barrel with a fume extractor - clearly shown in Terry Ashley’s review, and that is why it looked weird compared to regular L7s (my kit is not the first edition with both barrels apparently). Now, I think I will build one with the Type B barrel and the other with the L7. For the proper L7 barrel again, would it have the accordion cover (?) at the mantlet or would it be completely “naked”? It looks like the canvas mantlet cover might be covering up the accordion part in the pictures (which, of course, this kit does not include). But, at least, I think I can use the M60 or Leopard extra L7 barrels with minimal change (depending on the accordion part).
In regards to the L7 gun update happening at the same time as the the rear deck/fuel changes, I have read your previous comments here and in other forums. Older sources I found mention 2 major upgrades only, such as Vasko Barbic’s article. The first one is the gun upgrade as mentioned (I am just linking to the images in the original posts) here, followed by the second phase concentrating on the new engine, and the deck and the fuel tank extension.
And then there is the newer sources, like this build that specifically talks about the L7 upgrade with the Meteor engine with photos and the extended rear deck: 1/16 RC IDF Late Sho't Meteor Centurion with 105mm - build - RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum. The various factory pictures I found are also interesting, showing the entire engine deck empty (prepared for the new engine) as well as turrets with and without L7 guns, so I don’t know if there was a distinct phase 1 and a distinct phase 2. As a result, it is a bit confusing if they would have extended the rear deck and added extra fuel tanks without also adding the new engine as upgrade #1.5 in between.
However, I am going to go with the extended deck in the L7 version. For scratch-building this; I think it would be the same idea as the Sho’t Kal parts L46 and L36 in step 5 here: https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/2/1/269321-52-instructions.pdf. The Babic diagrams also have the engine extension looking about the same.
For the additional front armor, I think you mean part F8 in the 5/1 options from the instructions on Step 17, which is the only mention of the 5/1 I could find in that kit: https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/2/1/7/100217-14-instructions.pdf. I also thought that extra frontal armor was an IDF addition, not a factory modification for the 5/1s. The kit part also looks different from the Barbic diagrams (#18 here): https://forums.kitmaker.net/uploads/default/original/3X/f/e/fefd2cbbab31e0c5fac09463450671de81eda5d8.jpeg, as well as the Australian Mk5/1 kit’s front glacis part.
In any case, I think making an early IDF version out of the British Mk5 version is not going to be that difficult, considering people used to build Sho’t Kal’s out of Tamiya’s Mk3 kit 
Deniz
No accordion for '67;
Yes, two phases, the one outlined above, and then later on the engine upgrade, which necessetated new air cleaner boxes, rearrenged stowage, etc.
The fuel tank extension was independent of the engine upgrade. All diesel Sho’ts had the extended fuel tanks, but not all extended fuel tank had diesel engines, as they came later.
OK, so the last part seems to be the new engine deck louvres, which seem to be really specific to this version with the extended rear deck. For the scratch-building aspect; do they go straight on top of the existing five “doors” of the existing upper deck, dimension-wise, meaning they replaced existing doors and are using the existing hinges? Or were they narrower with larger gaps like the Accurate Armour one. I’d prefer to glue the louvres on top of the existing doors.
Also, how would one go about building them now? I don’t want to cut and glue 100 strips at an angle just to show that they are empty underneath, and I think you mentioned you used train parts/inertial filters like these Cannon & Company #1306 Inertial Filter Screens | eBay, which do not seem to show gaps in between the grills, either (do you remember which exact part you might have used?). The 1/16 model used Evergreen clapboard with no gaps (1/16 RC IDF Late Sho't Meteor Centurion with 105mm - build - Page 7 - RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum). Accurate Armor’s conversion is the only that shows significant gaps, but the chances of getting that conversion kit now is probably less than zero. There is also this photo that has the most clear picture of the louvres: https://archive.armorama.com/i.imgur.com/qP77dPc.jpg.
Deniz
If you want to build an upgraded Shot you need the Shot Cal kit as a basis. It includes all the parts you will need.
Note that the front headlights are different between early Shot and upgraded Shot. Early Shot have the original headlights whilst upgraded Shot has the jeadlights mounted on the center of the glacis plate.
I can share some photos pointing out details you need to notice later (currently at work).
Yes.
They look like this:
Accurate_Armour:
When I consider that my build predates the Accurate-Armour kit by several years, I got lucky on the louvres. They look close.
That would be an excellent start, but no such kit existed when I started.
This is not an early Sho’t, but rather a Britsh Suez version, but the older style lights are there:
These are the lights after the intial gun/fuel tank upgrade:
I bogarted the housings from a model car kit.
Please - never use a model as a reference. Not even mine. But if mine (or someone else’s) matches your reference photos, only then would I use they same tehniques/parts.
The only thing I’ve built more of than Bradleys is Centurions. I still build/sell old Tamiya kits on occasion.
This is before my time . Check your references and try and get the books by Dr. Robert Manashov as books go they are the best and most thorough of all of them. Plus you have scale drawings.
It’s before my time too, I’m not that damned old; 
I used old Born in Battle magazines.
Well I’m that old but they were all Shot Kals when I went into the IDF 
even the Nagmashot was new …
Early Centurions in IDF service. First of all, and a source of great confusion, the IDF did not use the same designations as the British did. So a Centurion Mk5 for the IDF is not the same as a Centurion Mk5 British standard.
Lets start with Shot Meteor.
The next step was the addition of the rear lower hull fuel tank, the 105mm L7 and some other changes. Upgraded Shot
One can see various minor changes around the tank. All the specific parts are included in the Shot Cal kit, minus the mantlet canvas cover.
Nice photos. The 11th has the L7 however.
The fifth photo might be confusing to some, as one of the tanks has louvres on the transmission covers. However, they are not an IDF upgrade - they came that way on the Mk 7. It probably inspired them to add the louvres to the Mk 5s later on. Both are considered Meteors, however.
The second to the last photo, and another similar one, is where I drew my inspiration all those years ago. Also notice that the gun on that tank has the accordion. I believe that’s because it’s a non diesel carrover to the Octob er War in '73. They still existed, so it explains why you see the accordion and the absence of smoke dischargers, which appear to have been largely removed by that time.
The IDF had few vehicles with the L7 delivered. They bought whatever Centurion they could source.
Thanks for all the excellent pictures! To clarify, I didn’t start out with wanting to build the late Sho’t Meteor per se - it is more of a lemon/lemonade situation after picking up both kits at a steep discount from my local shop. The goal right now is to build 35109, out of the box as a Sho’t Meteor early with the 20pdr type B gun, and the British Mk.5 as an IDF Sho’t Meteor late with the 105mm L7 and other changes you guys listed.
I have mostly ignored the IDF Centurions all these years - even with all the IDF modifications, they look like the proverbial British telephone boxes on tracks. As such, these are the first two Centurion kits I have, compared to oh-so-many IDF Sherman, Magach and Merkava and M113 ones in the stash. But, looking at all the photos, I am pretty sure I will end up buying quite a few of the Sho’t Kal kits now.
Deniz
Yes! the photo with the accordion solves my L7 barrel problems as well
Deniz
Thanks, @18bravo, I was able to get the Cannon parts. Totally agree with the models as a reference - I was more referring to the scratch-building “techniques” than the correctness of that kit. Getting the grilles right would have taken me a long time from Evergreen strips, the railroad parts hopefully would be a good start.
Deniz
Israel did capture 30 Centurions from Jordan. Off the top of my head I can’t recall which marks they may have been, although I know at least a few were mark 5s. By the time of the diesel upgrade the differences in the engine deck and hull rear would have been a moot point.
Edit: I just read where Israel’s second purchase of Centurion from Great Britain included Mark 8s, in much better condition than their original purchase of Mark 3s and 5s - they were brand new.
The ex-Jordanian Centurions were marked with serials from a specific block, different from the rest, so more or less easy to spot if the serials can be seen.