Rivet Counters vs. OOB

Back in the 1980-1990’s we owned a wholesale import/distribution business. Mostly model trains. Among the lines we carried were several manufacturers that produced buildings. Stations. factories, house etc etc etc. Mostly very ‘European’ looking. We had a great deal of trouble selling those kits here in Australia. So I started to build some kits and put them in dioramas and then in perspex display cases. Then I gave those displays to retailers for their stores. Well it worked. The detailed kits began to sell. So much so we ran out of many kits. I even had folks wanting me to build dioramas for them. All was well!

Then I attended a conference that had a model contest. I had two of the displays in my car so I entered them in the contest. I was disqualified because I was ‘deemed’ a professional. From that point on I’ve never entered a contest.

The moral of the story is that you should never take your hobby seriously. It’s meant to be fun. If you want to win awards then great. Win or lose always remember that it’s ‘just’ a hobby.

ps. I once entered a 1/25 scale model truck in a model truck show. It too was disqualified because I had put some clearance lights on upside down. I admire rivet counters but I don’t like the attitude of a very small minority of them.

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That small minority: Some people need to get themselves a life …

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I guess I’m somewhere in between the OOB and rivet counter. Most of my stash is older kits, and many of those kits do need a little help. So I add this and that to dress them up a bit. Or I may have multiples of the same older kit, so I’ll modify them a bit into different variants so that they are no longer identical. But I try not get wrapped around the axle obsessing over the exact details, as that really is a buzz kill for me. I have enough of those with standard gaffes such as broken off or dropped & lost parts. Now and then I get the boneheaded inspiration to detail out something (see my recent M47 engine compartment) that I did not originally plan to do, but then greatly extends out a project’s build time and causes me to lose steam. So nowadays I try to stick closer to the minimal mods than the deep surgeries so I can keep my pace and completion output up.
But yeah, I’m with you on the guys who talk a lot but show no work of their own. I mean if an ex grunt like myself can easily do it here on this site, surely those masters can do it and better than us riff raff…. :wink:

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I’m an OOB type tho I will replace very poorly done parts if reasonable replacements are available

How do you have time for guitar AND modeling? :wink:

I’m a model maker and I do “whatever blows my skirt up” when it comes to any particular project that I’m working on. That is, I’ll add as much detail as I want to add… or not, as the case may be. Too much work for somebody else? Not enough work for somebody else? I don’t care.

I simply don’t have any interest or care what anybody else thinks about it. Rivet counter, assembler, out-of-the-box builder or any and everything in between… Just doesn’t matter a darned bit what anybody else wants to call me or my work with regard to how I approach it.

I make models the way I want. If somebody else likes the work - great. If somebody else doesn’t like it - all I can have to say is, “Go look at some other model.”

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30 years ago I was a member of a local modelrailroad club. One old guy, who wasnt financially well off, built a loco out of a few old jam tins. Yes it was rough. But he had put his all into it. Well some members ridiculed his loco as being, well, rough! I spoke up in his defence. After that both the old guy and I never fitted into the group. We werent rivet counters. So middle fingure to them.

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I use to build for contests. I did not always get around to entering each contest I built for but the ones I did get into, I did well. I always like to improve my skills and the thought of entering kept me working on my game. I look at it like a musician in a way. I can sit home and play for myself or go out and play some local gigs. Playing for others is a lot more fun to me. For me, I plan ahead for a build. I research and have a particular version in mind if not a particular vehicle. I am not an expert on most vehicles so I rely on rivet counters to help me with the build. The good ones like David can provide me with details I was unaware of or heads up before I get there and every thing that is pointed out, I appreciate. It makes for a better kit in the long run. An example was the rear deck on Tamiya’s Cromwell was wrong for the application I was going to do. A rivet counter pointed this out when they heard what was trying to do. Simple fix to change out the deck. Those type of rivet counters out there I want to say thanks for your pointers. There are a few others however that point out things on a kit that can’t reasonably be fixed like the bolt heads on your road wheels are too small, or their information is not as accurate as they thought. An example would be saying that was never part of that model you were working on when you built it straight from a photograph. As far as OOB, I do this when I am far out of my knowledge zone. A good example in the Beach Stagger Wing. Cool plane, Don’t know enough about the plane to even understand the rivet counters so OOB.

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I can say that I’m not OOB guy nor rivet counter. I have to say thay I like to make a model as accurate as I can, but I won’t make a extensive research, just for loadouts, paintings, weathering… For example, if I’m building an aircraft and the original mold has a hatch that the aircraft doesn’t have, I’m not going to remove that. But I like to add PE, both in outside and inside and make the model as real as I can.

IMO, accuracy is not valued as it deserves in contest. Many time, judges don’t know if (previous example again) that hatch is correct or not. So that’s why I’dont expend much time with that issues. I’m not a contest guy, but that’s my impression when I have gone to some.

Another example with the last A-10 I’ve finished. I posted some pictures in a Spanish forum and some guys told me that she was too much weathered. So I had to take some pictures from the book I was using for references and post them these pictures, and explain that ‘Hogs’ in Afghanistan was in a non-stop routine (not always, of course). The same would happen in a contest.

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Mainly a ‘rivet counter’ and proud of it (as this means adding to a build and not criticising someone else’s build). Most of my builds have some varying amounts of scratch building and many have aftermarket. Mostly it is because I can see a difference. However, I have been known to limit my detailing and build OOB from time to time.

I guess it depends on the kit and what I am building. The Hobby Boss Dana is so poorly represented I could not live with myself without having a true representation and there was more scratch build work on that than box parts. Yet the Tamiya Renault R35 would have been OOB if not for me copying a photo of an actual vehicle that was sans tools. As Tamiya moulded them in the racks, I just scratch built the tool racks - that was it.

I am no spring chicken, and way past a lot of you ‘old boilers’ if truth be told, but my remaining years does not influence the amount of work I put in a build. I plan to live to 200 years old anyway :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:.

This is my preference and in no way do I look down upon anyone who builds OOB, who does not paint with anything but hairy sticks, etc. I am a solid believer in building for your own enjoyment, the way you want to build, and let everyone else enjoy what and how they model too. I can get as much fun out of seeing a youngster having a go, or someone building up their skills after a hiatus, no matter how they get their end result.

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Post it here! I know it’s got to be good.

image

Link: A-10C 82-0661 IN ANG 'Blacksnakes' - #64 by SF-07-18D

Only post that picture, so we don’t divert from the main theme.

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That’s a nicely done diversion, to be sure.

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If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck to me so I typically will build OOB (or mostly OOB) except for ships.

On vehicles, I will only update parts if its dire i.e. horrible tracks, warped gun barrels, engine deck grills.

On aircraft, I will tend to get some cockpit details because most kit cockpits (especially older kits) are an embarrassment.

I always get AM detail for my ship models. They almost always default to needing AM. Injection molding just cant handle that small detail for the most part. Just compare any plastic 1/350 Quad bofors to a resin or PE replacement and of course they always need railing.

I dont mind rivet counters until they get obnoxious about it. If thats what makes the hobby fun and enjoyable for them then I say go for it. It also often leads to stupendous model builds which I get to look at and enjoy :slight_smile: (PLASMO and Nightshift, I am looking at you here!)

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I enjoy researching and detailing my models rather than building them out of the box. I enjoy discussing such things with like-minded individuals.

I don’t criticize or evaluate other people’s models unless asked. I freely criticize and evaluate kits and other commercial products. I try to put the criticism in perspective to the overall model and visual significance, and provide remedies where I can for those who might want change things.

Enjoying the hobby the way I like seems to bother people, and based on what they say and write they appear to be bothered because they simply cannot believe that what I do can be enjoyable. Because they do not like what I like, I cannot be having “fun”, and therefore must be doing something wrong. I’m somewhat hesitant to say that I also think there are modelers who view increased accuracy as some kind of a “threat” to them, increasing the visible difference between other’s detailed models and their OOB builds.

It seems that there is a desire to keep kit errors hidden, either because of a fear that this information will be used against them in contests or to maintain confidence in their own builds. This last point can be exemplified by statements such as “I was looking forward to building this kit but now you’ve ruined it for me” and “I had started this model but put it away because you pointed out all the things I have to fix.” I have to wonder how much enjoyment they are getting from OOB building if knowing about errors shuts them down.

I want to point out a statement in the original post of this thread that is both ridiculous and common coming from OOB builders:

“I have a conflicted relationship with all you rivet counters out there. On the one hand I despise the know it all type who is quick to point out errors or omissions but who never or rarely show his own work. If you’re gonna talk the talk you’d better walk the walk.”

The existence of an error in scale model is a fact, independent of the reporter’s willingness to correct it. Is it your view that facts disappear, or should remain unnoticed and unremarked, if found by non-builders? That someone who doesn’t fix the error and post about it, whether for physical infirmity, financial situation, time constraints, skill limitations, or simply a lack of desire to build models, should keep their mouth shut? Why do you have a “conflicted relationship” with other modelers anyway? I have no issues with other styles of model building, simply because the way someone else enjoys the hobby has absolutely no effect on how I enjoy it. I don’t care what others do and continue to be amazed that there are people out there who are.

Time and again you’ll see threads and posts where “fun” builders complain about “rivet counters”, but I don’t recall seeing a single post where a rivet counter rails against those who build OOB. Why is that? Why does it seem that the rivet counters are perfectly content to let others enjoy the hobby however they please but the fun builders are only happy if everyone models like they do? It really comes down to a simple adage, in my experience:

Rivet counters criticize models; fun builders criticize modelers.

KL

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Blockquote How do you have time for guitar AND modeling?


Painted a 1/35 scale 3D Gibson Explorer from Mikeybugs :laughing:

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Kurt, you take my statement a bit too literally. It was meant to convey and idea. As for conflicted I was not specifically referencing other modeler’s but the concept of rivet counting in general. Again taking things a bit too literal. I also make it clear that I have no issue with other modelers as I freely admit that I admire them and their work. Seems that no one else had a problem with what was written in the post or took umbrage. They all seemed to get the general idea I was trying to convey without parsing .

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As an add on to my first post at the start… About rivet counting… Firstly life’s to short.
Secondly I really try to never do it… But if you read my post I just made to Russel on his Challenger 1 build, someone who doesn’t know me may well think, what a complete rivet counting tool that guy is… Far from it. The points I made are because I know Russ @rfbaer really goes full on when he is detailing and likes to make it as close as he can to the real thing. I have advised him of certain things during the build, and I know he takes everything I say in good faith, as I only want him to make the best build he can…
If I was going to offer advice to anyone I hadn’t been chatting with before, I would always offer advice in a a private message, and only if I’d been crewed on the wagon they were building which would also be explained to the person…

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I’m sorry, but it’s hard to find any nuance or figurative meanings in this:

“On the one hand I despise the know it all type who is quick to point out errors or omissions but who never or rarely show his own work. If you’re gonna talk the talk you’d better walk the walk.”

You may say it’s just me, but I think it would be hard for anyone to square “I have no issue with other modelers” with “I despise the know it all type”. Even if you ratchet down “despise” to 50% or 30% of what the word actually means (*), it’s still pretty negative and a long ways away from “I have no issue”.

I think you said what you meant, exactly the way you meant to say it. If you truly have no issues with other modelers, why say anything?

(*) to account for the obnoxious exaggeration that is endemic today; e.g. there is no way, under any circumstances or conditions, that a pair of socks can be considered “epic”.

KL

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Again! Taking a perfectly good thread on another tangent with :open_mouth: guitar talk!

But to give it some relevance, a true rivet counter would measure the pick up cord to insure it has the correct scale diameter.

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