Jagdtiger/King Tiger barrel rod painting?

[paska]

I would have to rate this image as definitive proof that at least some panzers were painted in the field with their tools still attached, including the cleaning rods, which clearly show the camo pattern.

That being said, all Jagdtigers produced after chassis number 305010 were camouflaged at the factory, (Jagdtiger, vol 2, Devey, page 162). The Neustadt Jagdtiger 331, chassis number 305020, delivered in November of '44, was factory painted in “Ambush Scheme”. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the pioneer tools, cables and cleaning rods fitted to the vehicles after painting at the factory?

Here the cleaning rods were obviously removed before painting the field applied camo, but the tow cables were attached, as witnessed by the masking effect visible on the hull where the cable has been moved from its normal storage location.

This Tiger II from the 501st shows a factory-applied Ambush Scheme and the cleaning rods are obviously bare. The shovel handle appears unpainted as well.

[Biggles50]

Looks like the basic color is Olivegrun with random patches and spots of Rotbrun, and Dunkelgelb.

[paska]

Jagdtiger #331 (Fahrgestellnummer 305020) commanded by Leutnant Kaspar Göggerle of s.Pz.Jg.Abt.653

Just in case anyone wants to know any particular minutia pertaining to this or any other engagement of s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653, I might recommend a copy of this book, a little light reading at 558 pages.

[Sladenyv]

Dear M70

I’m not so sure I’d call it a myth when it comes to late war Jagdtigers. The bombings, lack of communication and supplies just didn’t leave room for painted heavies leaving factories. I have read this in many sources. At best you get Dunkelgelb that’s it. Beyond that, factories didn’t usually do camo schemes for heavies and Panthers because they could not know what theater the tank or destroyer would go to, that’s why division was issued paint to be disbursed down the line, unfortunately they ran out of fuel which was their primer and then the paint itself. Then tankers had to find something, anything to camo their rig. Mud, whitewash, whatever.

[Biggles50]

@Sladenyv

Beyond that, factories didn’t usually do camo schemes for heavies and Panthers because they could not know what theater the tank or destroyer would go to…

On the contrary, the latest productions of Panthers, Tiger ll’s, Pz lV’s, and Hetzer’s that were issued for BoB were all factory painted, and most continued to be.

[M70]

So we are to believe there were no stocks of paint, but still enormous quantities of red primer available that miraculously escaped the ravages of war?

Add to this the late war use of zinc chromate primer - a sort of grayish-green.

Regarding the Octopus Tiger Bs, it’s my understanding that orders were that camouflage patches be directly painted — in this case, the dunkelgelb and olivgrun patches were painted directly with neither being an overall base coat in order to save paint.

Orders were also that overall olivgrun be base-coated by July 1945 was it?

Daimler-Benz applied their distinctive three color livery to the very end. Even a Schmalturm was painted in three color camouflage illustrating that camouflage painting existed to the very last day or two.

Other factories had their own patterns and manufacture can be easily discerned by these camouflage patterns.

[Elefant6]

They can be painted or left in varnished wood finish. Why the dilemma?

[paska]

Screen grab of the Rengershausen Tiger, “one of the very last”, fully painted in 3-tone “Ambush Scheme”. Note the 18-tooth sprocket and single-link tracks, (transport tracks here), introduced in mid-March, 1945.

[M70]

Nice photo. No tools. I guess they were added later, if at all.

So cleaning rods in this case would be au naturale.

[paska]

By order, after Sept. 1944, all panzers were to be camouflaged at the factory. Jagdtiger 305009 (“Porsche”), finished between Oct 5-7th, was the last Jagdtiger to have a field-applied camouflage, leaving the Nibelungen Werk in overall Dunkelgelb. 305010 had a factory-applied camo. This fact is confirmed by two photos of these vehicles, complete with their Fahrgestellnummer stenciled on the glacis, (see page 468 of The combat History of s,Pz,Jg.Abt653) All Jagdtigers produced after Oct. 7th, 1944, would have been factory camouflaged. If the pioneer tools, cables and cleaning rods were installed before the factory-finished camo was applied, we would see masked outlines of them on the vehicles once the tools, cleaning rods and cables were removed, and we don’t see this in the photos. Therefore, the cleaning rods on Jagdtigers built after Oct. 7th 1944 should be left in their natural wood finish. Now, if we want to speculate about vehicles returned for repair, field re-paints (in the winter) or other such variables, outside of a grainy, blurry color photo I posted, (which can be interpreted as people see fit), I would like to see the evidence. The statements about paint not sticking to oily, solvent-soaked wood and tanker disliking painted cleaning rods for their potential to leave paint chips in the barrel are both valid points.

As a side note, Jagdtiger 305010 was the last Jagdtiger with zimmerit, however, Jagdtiger 305011 was the last “Porsche” Jagdtiger, so it, unlike all its predecessors, did not have zimmerit.

[Sladenyv]

Thank you. My point was many to most of the late war heavies were issued in primer only (of which they had a much greater supply) and the end user units would hand paint or otherwise paint their own camo schemes depending on the commander’s orders

[Sladenyv]

M70, what are your sources? My understanding and review of current literature was that not only were late war armored vehicles subjected to paint shortages, but also commanders in the field would have the ultimate say on any paint scheme. The situation got so bad that the quartermaster of the regiment would issue whatever little paint they could scare up, but the units didn’t have the solvents to make the paint. Ordinarily, the crews would use petrol as the solvent but during the late war period petrol was only to be used for fuel. This compelled crews to come up with anything they could use as a solvent. Failing that they would apply mud or whatever. By mid 1945 not one tank factory was left un-bombed. Moreover, many were bombed more than once. The suppliers also had factories bombed like ball bearing factories. So your contention is that Daimler Benz was turning out fully painted vehicles that late in the war? That is not a historically tenable thesis. Where would Daimler Benz get the paint from? The factories for suppliers were bombed, the railroads and marshaling yards were bombed. There was a skeleton crew at some factories by this period but no way they had all of the material to turn out fully schemed tanks. How could they anyway? Unit commanders had the last word on this.

[Sladenyv]

Sir, on this issue i have read some sources to support the thesis that camouflage was left to end user unit commanders to account for mission requirements. One source is the “Tank Encyclopedia “ which, on subject of Jagdtiger says “ Paintwork

From the end of 1944 onwards, the exteriors of Jagdtigers produced at Nibelungen were painted in a red anti-corrosion primer which was then painted over in varying quality with dark yellow and green. The interiors which had previously been painted an ivory colour were left in the red primer colour instead to save time. Camouflage was left to units to apply in the field once they had received their vehicles.”
As a US Marine no longer on active duty i can at least attest to the military postulate that camouflage is always dependent on terrain and weather . And like fighting positions it was always being upgraded. German armor units in the Western theater of the European theater were always excellent at camouflage. sadly US units were slow at catching on, right up to learning the hard way that the white star on the sides of the turret were excellent bullseye’s for German gunners

[Sladenyv]

gentlemen, gentlemen… we’ve been bandying about the term “myth” like a beach ball. but what of the dwindling sources we have to refer? i’ve consulted the Devey book on Jagdtigers (an end of war beast) and Bruce Culver. where are the sources which postulate the rule here on the forum that heavies were being turned out with complex 3-4 tone camouflage? i’d like to read it. more than that, i’d like to visit the Ace Hardware which the factory painters used to lay down ambush camouflage during a bomb raid

[Armor_Buff]

@Sladenyv

gentlemen, gentlemen… we’ve been bandying about the term “myth” like a beach ball. but what of the dwindling sources we have to refer?

@Sladenyv Hi Daniel, this might be of interest.

1. The Bare Panzers in Red Oxide Primer Myth was Busted by well know and highly credible researcher Thomas Jentz. He created the Red Oxide hypothesis. There was an translation issue with original source material that was the bedrock of the misunderstanding that became the Red Oxide myth.

Here’s a nice summary with discussion and some details.
Missing Lynx: exposed-red-oxide-primer-t-l-jentz-publications

2. Allied Strategic Bombing wasn’t particularly effective or accurate. German war production rose in 1944 generally speaking. If red oxide primer was available its likely that other paint was available as well since the materials for the paints were available generally speaking from with in Germany.

3. The so-called sources that claim red oxide primer panzer rolled into battle month after month on a daily basis leaned heavily on Jentz’s work and his hypothesis because they didn’t do much if any actual research themselves in the majority of cases.

4. Luftwaffe was still able to paint aircraft so obviously Germany still had an ability to make paint. You can bet the Wehrmacht & SS were going to get paint of some sort if the Luftwaffe had access to paint.

5. It’s German WW2 AFV’s, everything we know has to be turned upside down ever so often because:

a) a rare person like Jentz does the hard work and research

b) a lazy bastard wants to sell some something

Ultimately, even though I think based on available information the whole red oxide primer panzer rolling into battle is hogwash, I think they can still look cool and I’d like to try painting one someday. I really like the model shown below.

maus-2019-test-post

[paska]

On page 273 of Andrew Devey’s Jagdtiger, vol 2, is this photo of a 3/sPzJgAbt. 512 vehicle, note caption “vehicle in almost total red primer color”.

I’m sorry, but Mr. Devey is dead wrong.

Here is a high-resolution left-side image of the same vehicle;

If anything on this vehicle is painted in Red Oxide Primer, it is the areas that would have been underneath the side skirts, which can plainly be seen as a different tone than the adjacent 3-tone camo. Here is the right side of the same vehicle;

And now the front;

And finally, another large, left side view;

So I am to believe the author that the entire rest of the vehicle was fully painted in a standard, 3-tone camo, but the left rear of the vehicle rolled out into combat painted only in Red Oxide Primer? I don’t think so. What we are seeing is a blown-up and burned-out vehicle, not a mythical unicorn.

In addition, the second to the last 12.8cm armed Jagdtiger built, (not including the seven or eight 8.8cm armed versions left at Nibelungen Werk for lack of gun sights and blown-up on May 4th.) was finished on April 15th, 1945, Fahrgestell nummer 305083. This vehicle was captured intact by Soviet forces on May 5th. It is currently on display at Kubinka. Here it is shortly after its capture.

The neatly applied, 3-tone paint scheme can be clearly seen. The only parts left in red primer are the front mud guards and the first panel of skirts, which may have been added after its capture, according to statements from other authors, as they are the final type with the raised ridge stiffener as seen on final Tiger II production, but not seen on any other Jagdtiger.

Obviously, German industry at the time suffered from severe material shortages of all types. Among those shortages was the shortage of Lead. If other colors of paint were in short supply, why wouldn’t Lead Oxide primer have been too, it was used as a primer on AFVs throughout the entire war? What’s more important, paint or bullets? While Germany had near self-sufficiency in terms of ore reserves for magnesium, zinc and lead, it’s a long series of processes from mining the ores, smelting the ores and processing the metals into paint pigments, all the while being subject to disruptions from air raids, transportation delays, labor, etc. This would also account for the reports of Zinc and Manganese Phosphates being used as primers, as seen on vehicle’s color photos taken at the end of the war inside the bombed-out factories, as well as actual documentation describing its use.

[Khouli]

@Sladenyv

As a US Marine no longer on active duty

As you keep telling us.

Barrell cleaning rods FFS.

[barkingdigger]

Good to know the JT barrel is five squaddies long…

[tankerken]

The top photo in your post is not the same vehicle as the other photos below it. The left side is a uniform dark color, it has tow cables and jerry cans hanging from the spare track holders, it shows no sign of a hit or penetration, and the road wheels appear to be all intact. The vehicle is obviously blown up and looks like it has burned. Without any other information, to my eye, the color of the left side appears to be rust from the fire. That last bit is my opinion, based on what I see.

The other photos show a vehicle with clearly defined camo paint, with obvious signs of a penetration, no equipment hanging from the track hangers, and the road wheels are all damaged and broken off.

From the information presented in these photos, these are two different vehicles.
Ken

[paska]

The timeline of these photos are months, if not years apart. please read the following;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82596826@N03/44764230545

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/archive1944to1945/viewtopic.php?p=282#p282

Parts get stripped and carried off, wrecks are used for target practice, the vehicle was intentionally set on fire after being disabled, rain washes away soot and dirt. Too many things have happened between these photos to fully account. They all show the blown-off roof resting on the left rear of the vehicle, the mantlet blown off is a rare occurrence, as is the use of transport tracks in combat. This was the last vehicle lost by 3/ sPzJgAbt 512, no other vehicles were lost in this area. These photos are all of the same vehicle. From Jagdtiger, Devey, page 272;

Both photos of the British soldiers sitting on the wreck are obviously post-war, it was American units the secured this area in the Harz Mountains.