Long Tom M59 and limber M5 question

[KurtLaughlin]

@PzAufkl

The kit’s spade legs aren’t too far apart, otherwise they wouldn’t fit into the stowage brackets on the trails;

I wasn’t certain what the problem was. You know how it goes: A doesn’t fit with B, so we adjust A, then realize later that our adjustment now keeps A from fitting C and D.

The real problem is answered by your last four pictures: The spade leg guides/brackets on the outside of the carriage open at right angles to the carriage body in the kit, while in reality, their opening is slanted forward, thus achieving the correct angle for the guidance of the outside spade legs.

I thought there was an element of that in there, too. This photo shows the alignment of the slots for the spade. It looks like the spade was perpendicular to the side of the lower carriage represented by the green line, so the inner brackets might need some tweaking, too.

I also found a TM illustration that is taken from a drawing:

Thanks a lot again, Kurt - that was another proof of this forum’s greatness!

You don’t need a forum, you just need to move near whatever model subject you are building.

KL

[Uncle-Heavy]

@KurtLaughlin

You don’t need a forum, you just need to move near whatever model subject you are building.

Not so easy as it sounds when the nearest 1:1 representation of the object is 1000 miles away or even on the other side of an ocean.
Humanity has come a long way thanks to our ability to share knowledge.

[barkingdigger]

@KurtLaughlin

You don’t need a forum, you just need to move near whatever model subject you are building.

Thank goodness I don’t model the Apollo landing!

[PzAufkl]

My broken thumb prevented model building, but not research: I found two TMs for this gun on the web:
TM 9-350, 7 may 1945, TM 9-350 155-mm Gun M2, Carriage M1 and M1A1, Gun Mount M13, Heavy Carriage Limber M2 and M5, and Firing Platform M1 : United States. War Department : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and
TM 9-3038, september 1955, 155-mm Gun M2: Carriage M1 and Heavy Carriage Limber M5: Operation and Organizational Maintenance (Technical Manual TM 9-3038) - Payhip

Between the two, they provided me with these informations: “Remove keys from two trail doors (fig. 1), and open doors. (These keys will be used to secure front spades to trails.)”, “Swing the trails open and secure the [rear] spades to the trails by means of the trail spade keys (fig. 2).” and “Swing the trails closed, close the trail doors (fig. 1) and fasten with the keys removed from the front spades.”

L-shaped keys for the spades at the trail ends could be made from 1x1mm styrene strip - they’re also used to secure the A-shaped travel brace on the trails and can be stowed on the outside of the left trail.

Searching walkarounds showed front spade keys in place on the trail doors, e.g. at Toadman’s tank pictures:

Which, together with lots of other pictures showing slits in the legs that go to the outside of the carriage and a steel bar welded to the others, convinced me that mounting the front spades worked something like this:
The spades are placed below the carriage, above or in the holes dug there, and pushed sideways towards the center until the legs are seated in the braces there, with the welded-on steel bars resting on top of the lower ones. This also moves the outer legs into place, where the keys are pushed through them, also resting on the lower braces. The effect being that the spades will be pulled from the ground when the carriage is being lifted.
And that’s how I made them: I shaved off the wrong outside brackets and made new ones from 0.5mm strips and triangles; the result showed that for the position of the spades underneath the carriage, the support legs are about 1mm too far apart, while their distance is correct for stowage on the trails. (For the pictures, I placed the cut-off part next to my creations.)

To achieve the necessary space between keys and braces, the “channels” for the keys had to be heightened (on all four legs, see illustration in Kurt’s post, #15 above) by cementing on pieces of 0.75mm styrene before the slits could be drilled and cut out with a jigsaw blade. The keys were sanded from 0.25mm styrene.

So now I’m waiting for someone who has been working with a 1:1 scale sample of this gun to tell me I’ve drawn all the wrong conclusions - but until then, I’m happy with what I’ve cobbled up.
Happy modeling,
Peter

[KurtLaughlin]

@PzAufkl

. . .the result showed that for the position of the spades underneath the carriage, the support legs are about 1mm too far apart, while their distance is correct for stowage on the trails.

How did the spade support (leg) spacing on the kit compare to the measurements I took? From the picture in message #40 it’s clear they goofed on the mounting and the gusset locations (making them symmetrical rather than offset, see message #39.) I suspect this is at the root of the spacing error.

KL

[PzAufkl]

Kurt,
The distance between the spade supports that you measured as 26 inches translates into 18.868571 mm in 1/35 scale; on the model, it’s 18 mm flat, so rather shorter than too long. Seems like we’ll really have to wait for a former user of these guns to explain it all …
Anyway, thank you for your interest and help,
Peter

[mech]

I like all the fixes that your doing on this kit.

Cheers,
Ralph

[PzAufkl]

Thank you - but I wish I didn’t have to do them, either with a better kit or without AMS!

[165thspc]

As to living near your subject: Town Square Carlisle, Kentucky: 8 inch gun about a 35 mile drive.

---

Or the Patton Museum (back in the day)

[KurtLaughlin]

@PzAufkl

Seems like we’ll really have to wait for a former user of these guns to explain it all …

Those are going to be rather thin on the ground, I fear, but I think what you have described is correct.

KL

[KurtLaughlin]

@165thspc

As to living near your subject: Town Square Carlisle, Kentucky: 8 inch gun

8-inch howitzer. This is an 8-inch gun:

KL

[metalhead85]

Kurt, what is the difference between the term “howitzer” and “gun” ?

[KurtLaughlin]

In this case it is most importantly a difference of nomenclature. They are completely different weapons.
M1 8-inch howitzer:

M1 8-inch gun:

Note for example that the weight of the gun carriage alone is more that total weight of the howitzer and its components.

In theory and American practice a howitzer is used for high angle indirect fire and a gun for direct or indirect fire. Howitzers typically have a shorter barrel and a lower muzzle velocity than a gun of the same caliber.

People regularly complain that they can’t keep American weapon designations straight because there are so many “M1s”. The issue is that folks don’t grasp that the name is an important part of the designation. Yes, there are plenty of M1 artillery weapons, but this is only a single M1 155mm howitzer, a single M1 8-inch howitzer, and a single M1 8-inch gun.

KL

[metalhead85]

So I take it the ammunition is not interchangeable?

[KurtLaughlin]

Generally, no. It was common for the driving bands on the shells to have different widths and sometimes arrangements (e.g. one band vs. two.) Also the propellant charges were different. In the case above, the gun charge was 10 times larger.

KL

[metalhead85]

Wow very interesting thank you.

[PzAufkl]

The instructions of AFV Club’s WW II rendition of the Long Tom M1 gun, kit #35295, can be studied at Scalemates. I noted that AFV apparently continues to give sprues A,B,C with all their faulty parts, and the corrections coming on the new sprues. So, whatever I’ve done and will be doing to parts from any of these sprues will likely need to be done to the M1 kit (and the kits of the 8 inch howitzer on the same carriage).
Happy modeling!

[PzAufkl]

Referring to my last post, the Long Tom’s A-shaped travel brace is a case in point: In the M59 version as well as the M1 one, it is constructed from parts A 20 and 21, and both instructions ignore the two handles A 27 for it. What’s more, the new kit contains the brace stabilizing cable with all its fixtures, but AFV Club took no notice of the fact that the protruding part of the “half pipe” under the retracted gun breech is’nt horizontal, but bent down (photo by David Lueck at primeportal):

I cut it off flush and cemented pieces of 0.5mm sheet to the cut which were then sanded down so the part could be mounted at the correct angle. Two triangles from thin sheet were cemented underneath to later hold the cable’s end.

The locking eccentric and its new axle are waiting to be mounted once the breech has been prepared for tests.

[thathaway3]

From 1992-1993, I was Battalion XO of 4/20th FA, an Army Reserve M110A2 Battalion in Lansing, Michigan. Prior to being equipped with the M110A2, at some point the Battalion must have been equipped with the towed M1/M115 8" Howitzer, as there was one on display right outside of the Reserve Center. Shortly after I left, the Army took all of the Combat Arms units that were in the USAR and either inactivated them, moved them to the Army National Guard, or converted them to something else, which is what they did with us. Sadly, after that took place someone made the decision to remove the old howitzer which was on display and it is no longer there, no doubt cut up and melted down for scrap.

[165thspc]

I am just glad they are finally taking note of the the brace stabilizing cable. It was not there in the early post war version of the kit and had to be added by the modeler. An important detail I feel when showing the weapon in the travel position.