Makinen
ropey
That is a good question, intellectual property has always been hard to control so the creator can share their efforts and not see them appear on ebay a week later. Live Resin has had those issues and I am sure many others as well. Perhaps a forum where creators can showcase their creations and manufacturers can see and purchase what they want, just like what Shapeways is doing, it is a great business model except the consumer ends up with a sub standard product after paying resin casting prices. Perhaps Shapeways is operating on too many fronts? If a modelling based printer company evolved the consumers (us) could lobby for specific products but then again our hobby is vast and if (for instance) the manufacturer was only interested in 1/350 scale war ships the 1/35 modern armour builder would be left out. This is worth talking about, the collective experience here should be able to come up with some good ideas.
That is some very nice work.
Shapeways’ business model changed dramatically a year or so ago. Originally a Dutch company who at first acted as a 3D printing service for people world-wide with design experience but no access to their own 3D printers. It was kind of like a 3D version of Kinkos in the same way that people brought something in and Shapeways produced copies. People uploaded their files to Shapeways then could have Shapeways either print the models for that designer privately or offer them to the public, sold from the designer’s “shop” within the Shapeways website. The designer got a fee the next business month. At first glance, the idea sounded very promising.
But what happened was the site became saturated with crappy 3D models few people were actually interested in buying. There were too few excellent 3D models that people other than the designer were truly interested in. That business model failed to attract enough sales to be profitable or sustainable.
Shapeways was heavily subsidized by outside investors. As the company was failing to attract enough sales, investors began bailing out. The CEO was let go and Shapeways then shifted its focus, going after printing on a commercial level for industry. The legacy designer shops still exist on the site but that is not Shapeways’ main focus any more.
Regarding intellectual property issues, that’s a very big deal for many reasons. For one example, I often get requests from people who own 3D printers who want to buy my CAD files to print my models on their own 3D printers. People generally erroneously think that the I would sell the CAD file to the customer for less than the cost of the model that is printed from it.
The truth is actually very, very different. The true value is in the CAD file, not the model. Since the CAD files often take hundreds of hours of research and design work to produce, they have considerable value, far greater value than the cost of one model printed from it. My livelihood is based on the value of those CAD files. So I don’t release those zoo animals into the wild where they could be copied and traded easily, effectively harming my business.
Each and every request for the CAD files is declined.
3 Likes
I am amazed people have the gall, or stupidity, to actually ask for it!
1 Like
Oh, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask. There are simply loads of places you can buy and download files for printing. So I think that engenders an expectation. In the current environment I think it needs to made very clear that the vendor is not, will not and cannot sell the files for the products they offer. I’ll be doing so with my files.
2 Likes
I’m more than happy to purchase files from Gambody, Cgtrader etc. and have someone print them up for me, which I do. I find some on 3d printer sites want ridiculous sums of money to the point of pricing themselves out of public’s reach.
I agree it’s not unreasonable to ask especially if one already has a 3D printer. Don’t have to incur the printing or shipping costs. While some might have other ideas for the file, I am sure others might be looking to print at a different scale than what is being offered and if the designer does not have desire or time to rescale it seems reasonable to ask.
Correct, it is a different business model and several individuals (not sure about companies yet) are selling the designs so you can print them yourself.
In fact, some designers even release their work for free. There is a very active community at 1/48, for example.
As a long-time designer offering items through Shapeways, I have followed this topic with interest. I appreciate that there is a community out there sharing files, but my designs have cost me real time and I’m not keen to just give that away. If I put the files “out there” I lose control of them, and while I wouldn’t mind some hobbyists printing for their own consumption there’s nothing to stop others from using the files to create products they sell for profit as their own. Until there is a mechanism to control access to the files I will continue with my tried & tested business model…
5 Likes
Yes, there are many different common business models and practices to consider:
- Some people sell their CAD files
- Some people sell models based on their CAD files
- Some people offer CAD files to the public for free
- Some people accept commissions for custom research and CAD design work
- Some people accept commissions for custom models and use CAD and 3D printing to make those models
- and more.
I think it’s important to note that people who operate under these different business models and practices are likely to treat their CAD files differently and respond to requests for their CAD files differently.
Please consider that if a person’s livelihood depends on the sale of models printed from their CAD files, he or she is likely to consider those files proprietary information and protected intellectual property. Those people will fiercely protect their files from public release.
In some instances, copyright issues may also be a significant consideration in whether or not a CAD designer releases his or her files.
As @Klaus-Adler states, CGtrader, Gambody are great places to buy CAD files from those selling them. Thingiverse is also popular.
I don’t mind being asked to sell my CAD files. It happens often and I simply, politely, decline. What is annoying is when the request goes something like this:
“I just bought my own 3D printer. I love your models but I don’t want to have to pay for them. Please send me the following 30 CAD files. I’ll send you $10 for your trouble. If that’s not possible, can you send me one sample copy of each of those 30 models? I can scan them here and make my own copies.”
Requests like that are not reasonable. Yes, I actually receive 2-3 requests like that each week. There are several problems with those requests. The biggest problem is that the request is explicitly intended to deprive me of the revenue I earned in researching and designing the models. It ignores the fact that the CAD files are the basis of my livelihood. The requester, whether aware of it or not, is essentially asking me and my family to pay for his modeling.
The requests come from people who would never think to walk into a hobby shop and brazenly say, “I love your models but I don’t want to pay for them. Please give me 30 models. I’ll give you $10 for your trouble.”
Imagine a person writing a letter to Tamiya or Revell and asking exactly the same thing. “Dear Tamiya, I love your 1/32 Corsair, 1/32 Spitfire, and your Zero is gorgeous, and 27 of your other models. But I don’t want to pay for them, or the pay for the shipping. Please send me the CAD files for the following 30 Tamiya models. I’ll send you $10 for the trouble. If that’s not possible, please send me samples of all 30 models. I’ll scan them here and make my own copies.”
But somehow, call it a CAD file for 3D printing, and any appreciation for its actual value and the worth it has to the person selling models based on it, is utterly lost to some people.
I declined a request for 10 free CAD files yesterday “for personal consumption” as he put it, not to be shared publicly. Not happy with my refusal, the requester then brazenly offered me $20 for 10 “sample models” printed from those CAD files. He also asked me to provide free shipping since I would be sending more than one model and “shipping is so expensive these days”.
Do these people ask their lawyer for free legal advice or their doctor for free treatment? If after buying a new lawnmower, do they ask the neighbor 12 year-old to mow their lawn for free because that kid is mowing lawns anyway, he seems good at it, and mowing the lawn himself is a lot of trouble? Do they walk into the local Walmart and demand 30 products and offer $10 for their trouble? If after buying a new grill, do they expect the local grocer to provide them with 30 steaks, promise not to release them to the public and use them only for their own consumption, and offer the grocer $10 for his trouble?
Obviously not. But some of these same people have no problem asking an aftermarket vendor for exactly that - free, or nearly free, products.
Sure, some lawyers work pro bono. Sure, some medical professionals provide free care in certain circumstances. Sure, some 12 year-olds mow the lawn of the infirm granny living next door for free. They can do so because their revenue and livelihood comes from other sources. And sure, vendors offer promotional materials at little or no cost. But because those practices exist doesn’t mean that all similar professionals can or will do that. Nor is it reasonable to expect them to.
We might say that there is nothing wrong with asking an aftermarket vendor for his or her CAD files. But consider this: in the same way that we shouldn’t expect people to work for free simply because we don’t want to have to pay for their efforts, don’t be surprised when the aftermarket vendor declines to give away the source of his or her revenue, declines to sell CAD files for nearly nothing, or doesn’t even respond to brazen requests at all.
4 Likes
Hey Steven I get that it’s a business and it puts food on the table. but I have a guy who prints stuff for me at reasonable rates, he printed up an LAAT for me for £176 including shipping, other people I asked wanted 3 times that amount, which in my mind is greed and daylight robbery…so I’d be interested to see your products and price range.
And this is where the dreams and fantasies that so many modelers have about 3D printing replacing traditional kit and AM manufacturing go up in smoke. I don’t know how many posts and threads that I’ve read over the past few years in which the writer predicts that “one day we won’t have to buy kits, we’ll just buy a 3D file and then print the model at our home on our own 3D printers…”
So many folks have some Star Trek “replicator” image in their heads when it comes to 3D printing. “Oh, I’ll just step up to my work bench, hit the print button, and sit back until my model is printed. I’ll never have to buy another kit!”
True, there are a lot of folks who will give their designs away, BUT! Take a few minutes and just look at some of those designs on a site like Thingiverse. You’ll discover that most are, well, free for a reason. The best designs are really more like advertising for the designers who also have Patreon or other pay sites. “You like this design? Great! Subscribe to my Patreon and check out all of the other, even better designs that I have for offer there.”
As @Model_Monkey (Steve) and others have observed, the TRUE value created in the process is in the design work. That’s where the money is, and that’s what you’re mostly paying for when you buy 3D printed parts. Sure, there are production costs (the amortized costs of the printer and resin, post-printing cleaning materials, electricity, and some labor), but the design work is the foundation and basis for the creation of the parts, and because most electronic files are fungible, the CAD/STL files are the intellectual capital property that has to be protected.
There may come a time when 3D CAD/STL files can be produced in the same manner as NFT (non-fungible tokens or art). If or when this technology has been developed, it may be possible for the designer to sell his or her 3D CAD/STL files as unique, un-reproducible items. That might mean that the 3D print file becomes as uniquely valuable as an individual kit sitting on a LHS shelf or in a modeler’s stash. The modeler buys the 3D print file, and he or she can print multiple copies of the design, but the design itself cannot be copied and shared endlessly. In this way, anyone who wants to print the item must have an original, non-fungible 3D file that was sold by the original designer (or someone that the original designer has sold that file to).
However, that day has not arrived yet. Until then, 3D printing is all about the files, and the folks with real design skills are the ones driving the train, not the folks with the printers.
3 Likes
Click here to see the Model Monkey catalog to give you an idea of my pricing.
I certainly recognize that there are people who gouge. We’ve all seen it. And there are many reputable vendors, too, who ask a fair price for fair work. Please seek out and patronize the reputable vendors for your modeling needs.
Although pricing is an important consideration, pricing alone is not a good measure of a vendor. Reputable vendors’ normally reflects their actual production costs. That’s because pricing variables can vary wildly from vendor to vendor.
The Tamiya 1/32 P-51D Mustang costs much more than Revell’s 1/32 scale P-51D Mustang. But does the price difference mean that Tamiya is gouging, stealing, or otherwise behaving disreputably? Of course not.
Product pricing depends on several factors, many of which are not intuitive.
A model’s price is not determined solely by how much resin is required to produce it. Generally, there are three big factors in pricing a model:
- how much did it cost to research and design?
- how much does it cost to print?
- how many people are likely to buy it thus sharing those costs? In other words, is there sufficient market demand to pay to help pay for the model and sustain future work?
A customer once angrily wrote to me stating that he had just bought his own Anycubic Photon and a resin cartridge for it. He said that a set of 1/200 scale Titanic funnels would take about $30 worth of resin to make so my set should be priced at about $30. I told him that if he would like $30 worth of liquid photosensitive resin, I would gladly send him a vial for $30. If he would like that liquid resin turned into a set of accurately scaled, fully riveted and detailed Titanic funnels designed from costly scans of original Harland & Wolff shipyard drawings, adjusted to perfectly fit his $500 Trumpeter kit so that they sat at the correct height and at the correct angle, printed on a state-of-the-art Formlabs Form 2 or Form 3 printer serviced by the factory, printed over an 18-hour period, completely dedicated to producing his order alone for that entire time, that set of funnels would cost him $120.
Below are a few of the more important factors that affect pricing. Some are obvious, others less so.
Research and design cost usually far outweighs production cost. Research costs and design time must be accounted for. So too is market demand. Products that are less likely to sell well are going to have to cost more in order to pay for the research and design time needed to create the model.
Some of my models required very costly research and reference materials and are priced accordingly. For example, a model will cost more if I have to pay a lot for sufficient authoritative reference materials from which to make the model. Models that can be designed from easily obtainable, even free, references cost less.
A model may be based on an object that is protected by copyright or trademark thus a license may be required in order to sell it commercially. Think anything by Star Wars/Disney probably requires a license to sell. The license may be very expensive or not. Licensing costs vary wildly, too.
3D printers are not created equal. Although excellent machines for hobbyists, commercial vendors are generally not using inexpensive Anycubic Photons or an Elegoo Mars. They’re using machines that can essentially run continuously achieving very predictable, high-quality results like very expensive B9 Core 550s or Formlabs Form 2 and Form 3 printers. Those machines aren’t cheap nor are the factory service plans that have to be bought for each machine in order to get fast repairs in the case of a breakdown.
Yes, 3D printers break down. And when they do, the owner is rarely able to affect a repair without factory assistance. 3D printers are very complex machines. A printer breakdown can be a business threatening event. A well-respected 3D printing vendor in New Zealand recently suffered a catastrophic printer breakdown that stopped production for 2 months while the printer was sent to the US for repair. Normally, shipping the printer to another continent is difficult and slow. With Covid -related international shipping disruption, it is glacially slow. Fast, factory support is required and has to be paid for and it ain’t cheap.
Time to print also has to be accounted for. For example, printing one very large model for one customer may consume the entire build space of a printer for a day or more. No other orders can be printed by that printer during that time. This can be very disruptive so a business printing large models may have to have more than one printer in order to have sufficient production capacity to print multiple orders simultaneously. So the customer who buys that large model isn’t just helping to pay the amortized cost of the one printer making his model, he is helping to pay the amortized costs of all of the printers needed for the vendor to operate efficiently.
For those whose printing efforts are their primary source of income, ask yourself what you get paid in a week. That’s what the vendor has to make on top of his printing expenses for that week in order to stay in business. If the business isn’t providing a wage comparable to other work, it’s not really a viable business and is actually distracting from other employment that will provide sufficient, necessary income.
What’s needed is a fair balance between meeting the modeler’s product needs and meeting the vendors sustainable revenue needs. Vendors shouldn’t gouge customers and customers shouldn’t expect free products or free work from vendors.
5 Likes
These discussions are very similar to the same kinds of discussions that scale modelers had back in the '80s and early '90s about “garage kits,” and resin and PE AM.
Back then it was the cost of hand-mastering the parts to be reproduced or the costs of hand-artwork for the PE coupled with the costs of RTV, resin and the pressure-vacuum casting pots that so many modelers couldn’t grasp.
Modelers seem to decouple their sense of and appreciation for the skills, talents and time required to create and produce AM kits and parts from the reality of actually doing the work. I suspect that there are a couple of contributing factors for this.
One is that so many small AM producers are also other scale modelers. The general modeling community seems to think that since these folks are also other modelers, that they’re doing the work simply for its own enjoyment (like they experience with their own builds). True, many of these small producers do start out as modelers, themselves, and first entered production of AM as an extension of their own hobby, once the scale of production reaches a certain point, these small producers have to be just as “commercial” as any of the giant kit makers (or they won’t be in business long).
Another factor that I think comes into play is the too many modelers feel (incorrectly) that since these AM additions are so easy for them to use and incorporate into their own builds, that there must not be much to actually making them. They tell themselves (incorrectly for the most part) that, “Hey, I could scratch-build such and thus if only I wanted to spend the time and effort to do so. It’s essentially easy, so why should I have to pay so much for some other modeler’s similarly easy job?”
Finally, too many modelers look at the AM bits and pieces they’re buying and make a (false) mental comparison with size-volume and value. They think, “This or that little bit can’t possibly be worth that much money.” They totally eliminate the time, skill, and effort required to produce that little bit from the value of the material in it.
The fundamental problem is that these attitudes incorrectly conflate the modeler’s own skills, talent, time and money with that of the AM producer. It’s a false comparison (even if probably mostly an unconscious one).
2 Likes
I use a lot of aftermarket on my builds. I also like to build unusual subjects. You won’t find any Tigers, Panthers, or Shermans in my stash. So, I have a lot of 3D printed aftermarket bits and pieces. I have completed 13 full 3D printed kits so far, have another in the paint booth, and another half dozen in the stash. I never balk at the price of the 3D printed aftermarket or the 3D printed kits. My time is worth money and buying the 3D printed parts and kits is far cheaper than me scratch building. I want the 3D kit manufactures to be financially successful so that I can keep getting decent quality kits and parts. I am happy to pay them well for their expertise, time, equipment and materials.
4 Likes
i know there is a lot of talk about 3d printing replacing standard models and to some extent i agree with that but we are not there yet, in the last couple of months i haven’t bought any kits but i have bought several £d printed items which i have paid for that simply aren’t out there in standard kit form.
most manufacturers seem to sell things to people that they think they want rather than just asking people what they would like.
i love sci-fi and the options are limited but rather than embrace suggestions companies back away from them, in normal modelling, do we really need another tiger, sherman or spitfire. and yes this discussion over 3d kits is similar to the garage kit arguments back in the 90’s. like all new tech, it’s expensive at the start but now 3d printers are coming down in cost and are available to the common man and not the exclusive luxury of large companies and so people expect that things should cost them less. i have seen shapeways prices and i wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole but i am lucky, as long as i can get the files i have a man here in the UK that will print stuff up for me at a reasonable price.
Regarding project selection, customer requests are very important and ought to be one factor vendors consider. But individual customer requests don’t always translate into projects that the market as a whole will support. Many times, what a customer wants is a very bespoke project for which there is no actual market demand. Actual market analysis must be conducted.
As has been said many, many times, in many forms, “I would rather have 5% of the Spitfire market than 100% of the Avro Anson market.” Aftermarket products are similar. I’ll sell 60 Arizona turret sets for every Cleveland class cruiser turret set.
Regarding costs, there are two prices we ought to keep in mind.
- The price to research and design the model.
- The price to print the model.
Although the first cost remains very stable, as @Klaus-Adler points out, the cost of 3D printing technology is coming down. Phrozen and Elegoo make superb, inexpensive 3D printers, right now, today.
Most modelers truly understand these two costs and that both costs must be satisfied to create a sellable model. But not all.
The problem for vendor-designers is that occasionally, a potential customer doesn’t understand those two costs, or worse, deliberately and completely ignores the research and design cost, only considering the cost to print, erroneously thinking (or insisting) that the research and design cost is zero. Then that person complains bitterly when the two combined costs exceed the printing cost alone by a large margin. Sometimes, that person in his or her innocent or deliberate misunderstanding, falsely and very publicly accuses the vendor of greed and theft.
To those thankfully few people, well, get over it and grow up. It costs a lot of time and money to research, design and produce a sellable product.
I wish I had a nickel for every time one of those people asked me to design something for them for free then followed up the request with one of the following:
“If you design it, I’ll buy one.”
“Everyone who has the kit will buy one.”
“It will be a good addition to your catalog.”
“It will sell like hotcakes.”
“It is a license to print money.”
The actual research and design cost is never zero. That substantial cost can’t be wished away with the wave of a hand or false, speculative promises that others will certainly buy the model. The person who makes requests like that is essentially attempting to transfer all of the research and design costs from that person to the vendor (me and my family). At best, it is a request ignorant of the real costs to produce a sellable product. At worst, it is a crass manipulation attempt to receive free research and design work in order to persuade the vendor (me and my family) to pay for the requester’s modeling. Requests like that are immediately rejected.
I’m sure the requester doesn’t work for free. Funny how so many expect a vendor (me) to work for free. Frankly, no professional designer I know works for free and we don’t need the practice.
Sometimes, after being told no, these people, like modeling predators, just move on to the next 3D printing vendor and hit that person up with the same manipulation. What these people may not realize is that 3D printing vendors actually talk to each other, even collaborate on projects (click here to see a review of a recently released battleship model kit with six vendor-contributors). Sometimes we talk about the market. Sometimes we talk about technical printing issues and how we found ways to solve pesky printing and designing problems. Sometimes we just talk about news, weather and sports. And sometimes we alert each other to the jackass who just tried to get us to pay for his modeling.
The good news is that those manipulative requesters are comparatively few. By far and away, most modelers and customers are superb, wonderful, fair-minded and are highly valued by vendors. But those noisy few can suck the joy out of being a vendor some days.
3 Likes
Nothing has changed in the hobby market/world. Just the items being discussed.
About 27-28 years ago I got a contract to build 1/24th scale trucks for a finance company. They financed many large trucking companies here in Australia. They wanted me to build customer trucks so that they had some PR going on for clients. Well I did several and made “reasonable” money. Then along came the hobby folks. Seen what I was doing. Approached the finance company and next thing you know the finance company told me they could get all the models they needed for just the cost of the kits.
I also got a contract to build a large number of wooden sailing ships for a high end restaurant. Did about 5 when they cancelled the rest of the deal. Hobbyists under cut me again.
My point being that anyone who thinks they can make money out of their hobby needs to think very hard about it. Especially when you are talking about files for 3D or laser printers/cutters. It’s a jungle out there and there is little to no respect for copyright or such.
I don’t blame folks for wanting some return on their efforts. But selling a file for however much is no guarantee that that file isn’t going to find its way to a factory in China somewhere.
If it was me I would be sharing files because the alternative is a trail of pain.
2 Likes
I’ve just added the following to my (impending) website:
Important note! I do not, Will not and Cannot sell or give away the 3D printing files for my products. They can take hundreds of hours and dollars to design, prototype, fail, succeed, trial and swear at in order to produce a viable, enjoyable product. Please don’t ask. If you do ask, I probably won’t respond. If I do respond, it won’t be what you want hear.
It’s big and bold at the bottom of the front page. I know it won’t completely obviate the need to deal with stupid emails, but should head most of them off.
3 Likes