Special Ops in Afghanistan Question

If memory serves me right, the M21 started out using the McMillen synthetic stock, and that stock was designed as a cross between bench rest and across the course shooting did neither one all that well. Then it was redesigned as a pure bench rest stock. Good, but there was better. Down the road the stocks got into the neighborhood of $600 a piece unbedded. HS Precision was the alternate contractor, and when it was time for a new contract they came in for a hundred fifty less or more maybe even more. Not nearly as good as the McMillen, but still better than a lot of them. I have the civilianized version and it just doesn’t do anything well. Then there are the issues with the action itself that few will admit. It’s too short for the 51mm case length and good bullets. On the otherhand the Savage is roughly .188" longer and that solves that issue. A standard Savage has about one third of the lock time the Remington has, and is still faster when the titanium firing pin and spring are installed. But the real issue with the Remington is their junky bolt head. Almost never squares up with the case.
It’s time for a completely new design from somebody besides “big green.” I do know that the Marines are looking seriously at 6.5mm and 7mm bores for their next rifle. Case will probably come off the 57mm Mauser design, but will not have much in common from there on. The idea is to get a rifle scope combo that will come in well under the 12.5lb. mark, and still be a legit 1200 yard piece. It can be done easily, and this has been proven out. The action will not be Remington, and last I heard Stiller was what they wanted. The barrel will be a variable headspace that uses a Savage style nut. They have even tried out aluminum actions as well as titanium. The reason they are looking at the 7mm and 6.5mm is simply the very high ballistic coefficients from their heavier bullets. Or another lesson in Physics 101!
gary

Yup, the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW), chambered to 6.8mm is impressive, and from preliminary reports, all three prototypes are said to work quite well.

The need for the NGSW’s 6.8mm is the fact that peer nations’ soldiers wear body armor that may defeat a 5.56mm round. SAPI ceramic plates can take hits from AK-47’s 7.62mm round. AND the 6.8mm round can go out to at least 1,000m, a far cry from the 500-800m for the M-16A4 rifle and the 300-500m for the M4 carbine. The only squad/platoon weapon in the Army and USMC inventory, besides a rocket or sniper rifle, that can reach 1,000m is the heavy M240, and the medium machine gun isn’t a precision weapon. Thus, the firefight in Afghanistan was very lopsided towards the Russian AK-47, SVD, RPK, PKM, and those weapons chambered for 7.62mm. Precision might not have been great at distances of 800m-1,000m, but the US soldier couldn’t hit back because the M4 carbine was effective out to 350m only.

I have to say that I never saw an M21 with anything but a glass bedded walnut stock. We used “beater” M14’s with synthetic stocks for a lot of training, but all of our operational rifles had wood stocks. Actually, IIRC, the AMTU instructions on accurizing the M14 to NM standards didn’t even mention the synthetic stock. (I could be wrong about that. It’s been a very long time since I had a copy of the manual in hand.) Of course, all of my experience with them dates from about '79 and later, so it’s quite possible (probably even likely) that there were some earlier tests or limited fielding of an M21 with a synthetic stock.

Our M40’s (technically all Rem. 700’s) had a variety of different stocks and stock configurations, to include synthetics and bench rest stocks with bull barrels. A lot of that had to do with the preferences of the guys who were around when the rifles were contracted for. Some guy 10 years ago convinced the boss at the time to order rifles with wood bench rest type stocks and heavy weight bull barrels and that would be what was in the arms room when you got there. Later on, someone else would order another batch with adjustable synthetic stocks and medium weight match barrels…

Later most (essentially all, really) of our M21 and M40 were replaced and standardized with the M24. I don’t recall ever seeing an M24 with anything but a synthetic stock.

I haven’t really been keeping up with things since I retired, but rifles and calibers seem to be all over the place now. I considered getting something for my own use in .338 Lupua, but I don’t have anywhere to do long range target shooting any more (unless I want to drive for a couple of hours round trip). My home range is limited to 100 yards which is good enough to slow the erosion of skill and past some time punching holes in paper. Anyway, I spend more time pistol shooting than long gun shooting now. (One of my other hobbies when the weather is nice… LOL!)

In RVN, all Remingtons used wood stocks much to their detriment. Humidity was the enemy there. The 6.8 ammo I’ve seen wasn’t all that much better than 7.62x39, so somebody has finally came up with a better idea. Why I don’t know as the 6.8 case is nothing but an improved .225 Winchester, which in itself was nothing but an improved and rimless 30-30 Winchester. Not a great combo when you think about it. The ideal round in my mind would be something like the .250 Savage improved, but also have a slightly longer neck length. Be about 50mm long instead of the normal 1.92" length. This cartridge is really an over achiever in every way. Neck it up to 6.5 and your in serious business with 120 or 140 grain bullets. That same case in 6mm easilly shoots as well as the .243 with less powder and about a 20% greater barrel life (1.92" case length). Is a true half MOA round out to 800 meters and maybe even the 1000 meter mark with no wind in your face. The B.C. is the limiting factor there, and that’s where the .550 B.C. bullets in the 6.5 really show up.

That .338 is interesting. Cost an arm and a leg to shoot it (a pound of powder don’t go very far), and the cases are expensive. Bullets for the high B.C. rounds are pretty expensive as well. Have a buddy that has one, and he liked to came unglued just getting started. Got him pretty much set up, but he’s stuck with Redding dies. I told him to run from them! Was rather taken back by the recoil. It was milder than I expected. I sorta figured it would be about like the .450 Marlin with 350 grain bullets (I can’t get past three shots). Kinda like a 12 gauge 3" mag round. I kinda got bored with the long range bolt guns. Yes I still punch a few coyotes every year, and turn down that chance to get five times that. I used the 6mm Remington for years and tried others here and there. Now I pretty much use nothing but a completely rebuilt 700 in .223. The gun was junk when I got it new, and should have been replaced. I fixed it, but kept the junky OEM barrel cut down at both ends (still pretty sorry). The stock is OEM synthetic, and really sucks. There’s not much on the gun that hasn’t been rebuilt. So it has a 20" heavy barrel (real stiff), and a near perfect balance for off hand shooting. The rifle started out shooting just under five inch groups, and now is a solid .40" five shot gun. Not great, but good enough I guess. Coyotes don’t seem to care. It’s a solid 350 yard gun. By the way cutting all that metal off the barrel reduced the velocity by 74 fps!! 21.5" would have been perfect. The chamber is a .246 neck and the throat is cut for 50 thru 60 grain bullets. It’s a single shot with everything blocked and filled where there once was a magazine. Yet a factory .223 Savage out of the box still shoots better. I knew it from the start.
gary

1 Like

Mario, maybe it’s too late but I found this picture. Not a SF but a Devgru, Neil Roberts (KIA) carrying a M249 during Anaconda (2002)

ODA574 with Karzai, but no M249.
image

Another ODA, this time 586, and no 249s
image

But I’m also reading that Rangers were using 249s during Ananconda, but I can’t find anything about ODAs

I’ve found now (I was searching for info as I¡m writing the post) this picture of an Army regular with Special Forces during a mountain sweep, and it looks like a 249, but I can’t say if it’s manned by a SF or a regular
image

My guess is that SF also used the 249, but not when patrolling. Maybe they used as a mounted weapon on the Humvees (or GMVs) as a support gun. SO I think you took the right choice removing the 249 from the figure.

Regards!!!

1 Like

Thanks Nacho!

I did remove the M249 from the figure’s hands, and decided to replace it with Live Resin version. The pose, the pouches… everything about this figure suggests it uses the M249, and I don’t think the M4 would be an appropriate solution.

I’m still not sure if Live Resin M249 version was in use back in 2001-2003, particularly because of the M4-like stock. But I decided to go with it anyway.

Cheers,
Mario

BTW, here is the thread on building the base and figures for my GMV:
https://forums.kitmaker.net/t/special-forces-gmv-afghanistan/5775

You’re welcome, Mario!

I’ve been trying to get more info and a friend has sent me these pictures from Robert J. Miller, SF operator (KIA). HE’s manning a 249 on both pictures

image

He was serving from 2003 to 2008 and the pictures are suposed to be 2003-2005.

Hope it helps!!

1 Like

It does help. Thank you!

Mario

1 Like

Rangers with the 502nd did use the 249, as I’ve hear my middle Grandson speak of using one.
gary

P.S. question: This is not derogatory or anything, so don’t take it that way. The rangers and SF grew beards in many units to hide their identity. Yet how does a guy with bright red hair do that (I was once red headed)? Next time I speak with Dillon, I’ll ask him. His second combat tour was in Iraq awhile back, and from what I gather a much different ball game. He was with the 75th Rangers there. Ben is with the Rangers in the 10th Mountain in Afghanistan right now, so we do have a bit of sibling rivalry in our family
gary

We did not grow beard to hide our identities - we grew them because the locals considered beards to be a sign of manhood. We hid our identities by not ever letting them know our ranks or family names. Everyone in Orgun was known as Commander so and so. I was commander Rob. Plus I really hate shaving. As to your question about red hair, one of our terps (who ended up killing three 3rd Group guys, had red hair. When he first showed up, I thought he was an Irish American contractor. As a country located along many ancient trade routes, a lot of DNA has been spread there. Hence they thought I was Hazara. Turns out I’m 5% Pashtun, according to DNA test. And he was not the result of any liaison with a Russian back in the day - he said his whole family looked like he did. Our other terp looked about as Long Island Italian as you can imagine. His dream was to open a strip club in NYC. He also wanted us to raid a compound so he could check out the girl he was supposed to marry. Turns out her tribe prized big women, and he did not, I have photos of those two terps somewhere,

I didn’t exactly blend in when in uniform:

2 Likes

LMAO…I can attest to the Long Island Italian thing for sure Rob!

This is a good picture for a Vignette!!

“This is a good picture for a Vignette!!”
Pretty much already available as a “Shake-and-Bake” diorama in a box:

Regards,

M

That is a very nice set. Not all their figure sets are good, IMO seems like hit or miss with them with regards to quality.

Yeah, but it’s based more on this photo. I was in charge of training and paying 55 AMF, (Afghan Militia Force) many of whom were former Muj. If you could look past the buggery and the hash smoking, they were pretty good dudes. They manned seven OP’s around our firebase and were primarily tasked with our security. I’d ride around on a Yamaha dirt bike to pay them every week.



You can even tell who is who. The figures are very well done.

1 Like

Yes that set is well done- may have to get it

I had built this kit for a previous diorama I made around 4 years ago. It’s a very nice kit

I’d heard Master Box had a first-hand source for that group, but I hadn’t realised it was you…
Congratulations on being immortalised in plastic!

Respect,

M

1 Like

well thanks for setting me strait. I was told it was an identity thing awhile back by somebody whom I assumed knew. Being an Italian by ancestry, and yet red headed; I know we came from the far northern part of Italy somewhere along the way. Yet there are many blonds up there as well. Actually, everybody in the photo could pass for Italian, except for the guy kneeling. Still he could get by for most folks.
gary

does everybody over there wear a pistol? Silly question I know, but still kind of interesting. In my era, a guy with a pistol stood out as an NCO or officer unless he was on a crew served weapon (machine gun). I wore my 45 under my shirt with the buttons undone at the top. We wore no rank unless you were a lifer back in the rear or ticket puncher, as that was a bad sign.
gary