Special Ops in Afghanistan Question

gotta ask my Grandson as to what they are using right now. He’s assigned to the Ranger group attached to the 10th Mountain. His brother was a Ranger with the 502nd, and pretty much used the basic M4 from photos I’ve seen. Have no idea what he used in Iraq when he was with the 75th Rangers, but next time I see him I’ll ask him.

Your right about the M16a2 being a better long range piece. With the higher B.C. and heavier bullets I’d guess it to have another 100 yards or more effective range. I hate to say this, but in Afghanistan, the old M14 might well have been the ticket. Nay not so for my era in the jungle! But a great open country weapon. In my era, point, and number two were the only ones shooting a large volume of full auto, the hog was usually three, and as soon as he got set he’d pick up the pace. Be glad you never have to tote that 28lb. hog! Plus four belts a barrel and who knows what else! Often close to a hundred pounds on your 150lb. body. I weighed 140lb. and got stuck with it, and my knees show it today
gary

Oh no! If my Grandson grows a beard like that, his mom will fly over there to shave it off!!
gary

Modified grooming standards for the AO. Hell, the Rangers even stopped wearing their “Ranger cuts” that were standard in the Ranger Battalions.

Interesting that you mention this. In fact, large numbers of M14 rifles were refurbished into what was called the M14 or Mark 14 “Enhanced Battle Rifle” (EBR) and fielded in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Navy SEALs had modified a number of them sometime past since the Navy had retained large numbers of M14 rifles in their inventory.

Word spread in the SOF community as operations got going in the Middle East, and Army SOF started modifying the few M14’s that they could scrounge up to a similar configuration. DoD then hunted down quite a few of them that had been distributed to federal, state and local LEA’s and began asking for them back to expand the modification program to provide some of them to conventional units, too.

The proved so popular with the troops that new manufactured receivers were contracted for from LRB Arms (the only company that actually billet milled new semi-auto M14 receivers - and now selective-fire receivers under DoD contracts). So, the US military is now using a combination of original and new manufactured M14 EBR’s.

I may be wrong, but I also think most of the M21 sniper rifles have now been converted to the M14 / Mk14 EBR standards since they were superseded by other, newer sniper weapons systems.

Bottom line, though, is the the M14 still lives and continues duty with the US military.

What? No high and tights ?? Lol

Nope, the Batt boys now look like a bunch of hippies compared to Ronnie’s Rangers.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

:wink:

Wow lol probably a lot of barbers out there who aren’t happy

Honestly; I always avoided snipers during my military enslavement. I like a lot of folks in the theater just had some issues in the methodology. Then we hear all the hype bout this guy and that guy shooting somebody two and a half miles away. Not jealous, but simply have little interest. But if your talking 600 meters and all the way down to two feet; then I’m game. 91% of all KIA’s on the battle field come in under 100 meters. 70+% are under 50 meters. The best shot I ever saw was roughly 910 yards with a NM M14 with NM peep sights. The yardage was measured off the range finder on an M48. The guy was setting in a tree while the 5 oclock shadows were starting to move across him. A one shot sucking chest wound. Yes I’ve seen the MACV Heavy team guys make the 2500 yards shots like it were child’s play with a specially built Browning M2 that had a barrel that looked like a baseball bat and the strangest light ampliphied scope I’ve ever seen (used a 6 volt lantern battery). But that blond haired kid still is at the top of my list (all 135lb. of him!) The one serious advantage of the M14 rifle is the rapid second shot. You have zero interest in two shots, but sometimes you got to. Three shots, and the other guys know exactly where to look for you. From your status, you already know who actually does the killing on the battlefield, and who counts the bodies instead. For those that don’t know, I’ll tell you it ain’t who you think it is.

Did you ever see one of the very few super light weight M14 rifles? Know they were being tested by the 3rd and 7th SF at Bragg back in the early 1990’s.
gary

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My daughter will not be happy about this! Let alone him being out of uniform. I imagine Joe Biden will be getting a nasty letter from her! Plus she’s not real happy with two sons trading places in the combat zone anyway. Trust me; it’s starting to seriously age her, and now I know how my Mom felt in 68. She sat in front of the TV every night with my brother thinking I was going to show up on the tube. Press don’t go where bullets are still flying, and of course that makes a lot of sense
gary

The M21 sniper system (NM M14 + ART I or II scope + XM118 match 7.62 mm ammo) was always more of a “conventional battlefield” precision rifle fire setup than one designed for the “classic sniper.” It rated right up there with the Soviet SVD system, although the SVD was perhaps inherently a somewhat less accurate system (although not by much). The M21 was (and still is) an excellent “600 meter gun” that with care, expertise and under the right conditions was capable of consistent 800 meter and better shots.

Both the M21 and SVD were products of their time (Cold War and tactical nukes) and primarily intended for the high-intensity, WW III battlefield where multiple precision shots fired from the same position would just be “lost in the background noise” of the rest of the combat: precision rifle fire at multiple high-value tactical targets at ranges of 4-600 meters in support of the regular infantry when faced with a massed opponent. Imagine the sniper team in an over-watch position of the infantry searching out and engaging individual enemy MG and AT teams along with key-leaders and other command and control targets (like RTOs, message runners, motorcycle dispatch riders, enemy scouts and recon, etc.).

In short, the M21 only ever needed to be as good as it needed to be for the “big Army’s” purposes. Sure, the majority of the training emphasis and effort for snipers was put into the “classic” stalk-and-hide tactics and long-range marksmanship since those are the hardest skills to acquire, but if the balloon had ever gone up in the Fulda gap, the vast majority of any “sniping” would have been of the “precision rifle fire support” type. For that, a 20-round mag with quick reloads and “point and shoot” with near “point of aim = point of impact” engagements averaging around 500 meters would have just been the ticket.

The M21 and SVD both fill that need very well.

No, I never saw any of the M14 rifle mods back then. I seem to recall that the Navy SEALS had modified a number of M14 with the idea of providing full-auto 7.62 mm fire support without the need to schlep around a cut-down M60. IIRC, their need was for something that was basically for short duration heavy fire support during “in your face, knife-fight range” CQB against targets that might be armored up with vests or behind cover. They, the SEALS, wound up with what became the MK 14 EBR (enhanced battle rifle). For them, it was a specialized solution to a very specific tactical problem.

The general SF fire-support requirement for most ODAs was quite different. The Mk 14 EBR was attractive to some of the SF units that had similar CQB missions, but the majority of teams are generally not looking for that kind of fight, so belt-fed full-auto (when full-auto is needed) was and still is a better fit. When most teams get in a fight, they want and need sustained fire power, and a magazine fed rifle cum MG isn’t the answer. In that tactical situation, it’s an evolutionary step back to BAR or M14A2.

However, when large scale SOF ops kicked off in Afghanistan and Iraq, the MK 14 EBR became much more attractive idea because of its longer-range lethality and hard, shoot through walls and doors punch. Thus, Army SOF with the rest of the “big” Army following took up the Mk 14 EBR idea by modifying M14 / M21 to become the M14 EBR.

This makes sense now because most of the combat in the Middle East is either short duration CQB against targets in a restricted urban environment, or engagements against targets across wide open areas that are taking cover behind rocks and ditches. The 7.62 mm selective fire rifle becomes a sound addition to a load out. Add to this that most units are mounted (or backed up with mounted support), so they still have their belt-fed full-auto capability available for those situations when sustained, heavier caliber MG fire support is needed. In short, the units don’t have to give up anything to add the M14 EBR to their weapons selection.

I’m guessing that somewhere in your life time you got to put the fabled AR14 in your hands and maybe even shoot the danged thing. I did, and probably got close to the moon with it! The rifle was light enough to carry, but also hard to control. The stock looked like a wood version of the M16, and really did feel good in your hands. Still that was about it. I shot one down at Campbell in July 67, and liked to scared me to death. Unlike the M14, you never knew where it was going to hit, but you always knew it was going to climb on you at a rapid rate. I could really shoot an M14 well, and was even better with the early M16’s. The real issue with the M14 was that they were built to shoot the 150 grain bullet, and really needed to be setup to shoot the 173 grain bullet. Barrel was probably two inches too long for the 51mm case length, and the weight loss could have been added to the barrel contour. The muzzle brake was OK at best, and needed a complete redesign. Still a great weapon system with one major down fall. The weight of a typical ammunition pack. Then there was the issue of the magazine extending out the bottom getting in the way of shooting right off the ground. M16’s had a similar issue, but also less. Off hand the M14 was a great one shot weapon, but most folks had to take forever to get that second accurate shot. The M16 was a true rapid fire weapon, and not hard to shoot the 1.5 MOA in rapid form with some practice. I practiced on sparrows at a hundred to hundred fifty yards. In August 68 I came into a very nice M1d that was complete with the OEM scope. A little guy shot at me everyday at eleven in the morning. He was shooting in the eight hundred yard area with generic M1 ammo. (thank God!) After about five days of this we hunted him down, and I kept the rifle till Top shot it. Then it was his. That rifle with the right ammo could have been a thousand yard system. The recoil was not nearly what you’d think it would have been.

I had blisters and such on my shoulders from the M60. It was just way too heavy for what it was. Changing the barrel when it was red hot wasn’t fun. It took me a little bit of thinking to remember the process, but once I got past the little lever on the side I remembered. The M60 was also noisy. Usually traced back to the bipod assembly. I tied mine down with bailing wire as I always felt the OEM bipod made you set too high. Later versions had a forward grip to help keep the shot string down. What I would have gave for that! Still I was able to shoot off hand really well once I knew exactly what was going to happen with a five to seven shot string. The wire made changing the barrel a pain, but fixed that. The gun was very prone to feeding issues, and that’s where the orange juice can came into being. I learned that from a guy in the 198th Infantry. The later redesign looked like they took most of the issues into the redesign. By the way all those black steel links were later recycled into one of the most lethal weapons I ever saw. You probably know.
gary

I fell head over heels for the M14 the first time I fired an M21 just with the iron sights. I’d handled and fired one several times with the fiberglass / urethane stock, but it just “felt” wrong. However, with that fine piece of walnut under it… oh, well… It’s been a serious love affair ever since then. I’ll refrain from cogging up Mario’s thread with more war stories, though. LOL!

If memory serves me right, the M21 started out using the McMillen synthetic stock, and that stock was designed as a cross between bench rest and across the course shooting did neither one all that well. Then it was redesigned as a pure bench rest stock. Good, but there was better. Down the road the stocks got into the neighborhood of $600 a piece unbedded. HS Precision was the alternate contractor, and when it was time for a new contract they came in for a hundred fifty less or more maybe even more. Not nearly as good as the McMillen, but still better than a lot of them. I have the civilianized version and it just doesn’t do anything well. Then there are the issues with the action itself that few will admit. It’s too short for the 51mm case length and good bullets. On the otherhand the Savage is roughly .188" longer and that solves that issue. A standard Savage has about one third of the lock time the Remington has, and is still faster when the titanium firing pin and spring are installed. But the real issue with the Remington is their junky bolt head. Almost never squares up with the case.
It’s time for a completely new design from somebody besides “big green.” I do know that the Marines are looking seriously at 6.5mm and 7mm bores for their next rifle. Case will probably come off the 57mm Mauser design, but will not have much in common from there on. The idea is to get a rifle scope combo that will come in well under the 12.5lb. mark, and still be a legit 1200 yard piece. It can be done easily, and this has been proven out. The action will not be Remington, and last I heard Stiller was what they wanted. The barrel will be a variable headspace that uses a Savage style nut. They have even tried out aluminum actions as well as titanium. The reason they are looking at the 7mm and 6.5mm is simply the very high ballistic coefficients from their heavier bullets. Or another lesson in Physics 101!
gary

Yup, the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW), chambered to 6.8mm is impressive, and from preliminary reports, all three prototypes are said to work quite well.

The need for the NGSW’s 6.8mm is the fact that peer nations’ soldiers wear body armor that may defeat a 5.56mm round. SAPI ceramic plates can take hits from AK-47’s 7.62mm round. AND the 6.8mm round can go out to at least 1,000m, a far cry from the 500-800m for the M-16A4 rifle and the 300-500m for the M4 carbine. The only squad/platoon weapon in the Army and USMC inventory, besides a rocket or sniper rifle, that can reach 1,000m is the heavy M240, and the medium machine gun isn’t a precision weapon. Thus, the firefight in Afghanistan was very lopsided towards the Russian AK-47, SVD, RPK, PKM, and those weapons chambered for 7.62mm. Precision might not have been great at distances of 800m-1,000m, but the US soldier couldn’t hit back because the M4 carbine was effective out to 350m only.

I have to say that I never saw an M21 with anything but a glass bedded walnut stock. We used “beater” M14’s with synthetic stocks for a lot of training, but all of our operational rifles had wood stocks. Actually, IIRC, the AMTU instructions on accurizing the M14 to NM standards didn’t even mention the synthetic stock. (I could be wrong about that. It’s been a very long time since I had a copy of the manual in hand.) Of course, all of my experience with them dates from about '79 and later, so it’s quite possible (probably even likely) that there were some earlier tests or limited fielding of an M21 with a synthetic stock.

Our M40’s (technically all Rem. 700’s) had a variety of different stocks and stock configurations, to include synthetics and bench rest stocks with bull barrels. A lot of that had to do with the preferences of the guys who were around when the rifles were contracted for. Some guy 10 years ago convinced the boss at the time to order rifles with wood bench rest type stocks and heavy weight bull barrels and that would be what was in the arms room when you got there. Later on, someone else would order another batch with adjustable synthetic stocks and medium weight match barrels…

Later most (essentially all, really) of our M21 and M40 were replaced and standardized with the M24. I don’t recall ever seeing an M24 with anything but a synthetic stock.

I haven’t really been keeping up with things since I retired, but rifles and calibers seem to be all over the place now. I considered getting something for my own use in .338 Lupua, but I don’t have anywhere to do long range target shooting any more (unless I want to drive for a couple of hours round trip). My home range is limited to 100 yards which is good enough to slow the erosion of skill and past some time punching holes in paper. Anyway, I spend more time pistol shooting than long gun shooting now. (One of my other hobbies when the weather is nice… LOL!)

In RVN, all Remingtons used wood stocks much to their detriment. Humidity was the enemy there. The 6.8 ammo I’ve seen wasn’t all that much better than 7.62x39, so somebody has finally came up with a better idea. Why I don’t know as the 6.8 case is nothing but an improved .225 Winchester, which in itself was nothing but an improved and rimless 30-30 Winchester. Not a great combo when you think about it. The ideal round in my mind would be something like the .250 Savage improved, but also have a slightly longer neck length. Be about 50mm long instead of the normal 1.92" length. This cartridge is really an over achiever in every way. Neck it up to 6.5 and your in serious business with 120 or 140 grain bullets. That same case in 6mm easilly shoots as well as the .243 with less powder and about a 20% greater barrel life (1.92" case length). Is a true half MOA round out to 800 meters and maybe even the 1000 meter mark with no wind in your face. The B.C. is the limiting factor there, and that’s where the .550 B.C. bullets in the 6.5 really show up.

That .338 is interesting. Cost an arm and a leg to shoot it (a pound of powder don’t go very far), and the cases are expensive. Bullets for the high B.C. rounds are pretty expensive as well. Have a buddy that has one, and he liked to came unglued just getting started. Got him pretty much set up, but he’s stuck with Redding dies. I told him to run from them! Was rather taken back by the recoil. It was milder than I expected. I sorta figured it would be about like the .450 Marlin with 350 grain bullets (I can’t get past three shots). Kinda like a 12 gauge 3" mag round. I kinda got bored with the long range bolt guns. Yes I still punch a few coyotes every year, and turn down that chance to get five times that. I used the 6mm Remington for years and tried others here and there. Now I pretty much use nothing but a completely rebuilt 700 in .223. The gun was junk when I got it new, and should have been replaced. I fixed it, but kept the junky OEM barrel cut down at both ends (still pretty sorry). The stock is OEM synthetic, and really sucks. There’s not much on the gun that hasn’t been rebuilt. So it has a 20" heavy barrel (real stiff), and a near perfect balance for off hand shooting. The rifle started out shooting just under five inch groups, and now is a solid .40" five shot gun. Not great, but good enough I guess. Coyotes don’t seem to care. It’s a solid 350 yard gun. By the way cutting all that metal off the barrel reduced the velocity by 74 fps!! 21.5" would have been perfect. The chamber is a .246 neck and the throat is cut for 50 thru 60 grain bullets. It’s a single shot with everything blocked and filled where there once was a magazine. Yet a factory .223 Savage out of the box still shoots better. I knew it from the start.
gary

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Mario, maybe it’s too late but I found this picture. Not a SF but a Devgru, Neil Roberts (KIA) carrying a M249 during Anaconda (2002)

ODA574 with Karzai, but no M249.
image

Another ODA, this time 586, and no 249s
image

But I’m also reading that Rangers were using 249s during Ananconda, but I can’t find anything about ODAs

I’ve found now (I was searching for info as I¡m writing the post) this picture of an Army regular with Special Forces during a mountain sweep, and it looks like a 249, but I can’t say if it’s manned by a SF or a regular
image

My guess is that SF also used the 249, but not when patrolling. Maybe they used as a mounted weapon on the Humvees (or GMVs) as a support gun. SO I think you took the right choice removing the 249 from the figure.

Regards!!!

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Thanks Nacho!

I did remove the M249 from the figure’s hands, and decided to replace it with Live Resin version. The pose, the pouches… everything about this figure suggests it uses the M249, and I don’t think the M4 would be an appropriate solution.

I’m still not sure if Live Resin M249 version was in use back in 2001-2003, particularly because of the M4-like stock. But I decided to go with it anyway.

Cheers,
Mario

BTW, here is the thread on building the base and figures for my GMV:
https://forums.kitmaker.net/t/special-forces-gmv-afghanistan/5775

You’re welcome, Mario!

I’ve been trying to get more info and a friend has sent me these pictures from Robert J. Miller, SF operator (KIA). HE’s manning a 249 on both pictures

image

He was serving from 2003 to 2008 and the pictures are suposed to be 2003-2005.

Hope it helps!!

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It does help. Thank you!

Mario

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