Q: is there an advantage to using these three products in one mixture:
#71.262, #70.524, & #70.597 ?
seems they all have some of the same properties.
thanks
Welcome to the forums!
Vallejo 71262 Flow Improver reduces the surface tension of acrylic paint, causing it to lay down and dry in a smooth sheet. This will help form thin layers of paint when blending or using an airbrush. Flow Improver also helps with dry tip, but not so much as a dedicated drying retarder.
Vallejo 70524 Thinner Medium thins acrylic paint without reducing the structural strength of the resulting paint layer. This is best used to thin Vallejo Model Color paints, essentially turning them into Model Air paints. Thinning with water will accomplish the same thing but the resulting paint layer is less resilient when dry. In truth, I am not sure why that is, but too much water somehow interferes with formation of the binder layer.
Vallejo 70597 Drying Retarder causes acrylic paint to dry more slowly. This is best used to fend of airbrush dry tip or when wet blending to form color gradients. Acrylic paints are notorious for drying very quickly when used with an airbrush, causing all sorts of clog mayhem. This product is really important when spraying on a hot day and/or with low humidity.
Since all three products do different things, it may be advantageous to use two or even all three products at the same time. Exact ratios will depend on application, humidity, and temperature. The large number of variables associated with airbrushing, many of which are unique to the user, is a major reason it can be so frustrating.
If you are set on using Vallejo paints, I recommend purchasing a big bottle of all three. You will also want some Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner. It is not necessary to use this latter product all the time. Water is often sufficient for cleaning. However, Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner does some things water cannot do so it is good to use at the very beginning and very end of a airbrush session.
This is all my opinion. It is possible to travel this road in a lot of different ways. Experimentation and practice will yield progressively better results over time.
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Welcome aboard.
I second what Doug said. I have used the retarder and flow improver myself. Probably used water as the thinner but it’s been awhile since I shot Vallejo. I
would stick with Vallejo brand items for their paints. Other companies you can mix and match with generic versions but Vallejo behaves better for me when it’s in the family.
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thanks guys. appreciate the feedback & advice. initially i was trying to use all three products at once but then shifted to paint (both Color & Air) mixed with about 30% thinner medium and my blood pressure dropped dramatically.
i also use Stynlrez primers, and mixing Vallejo with them may not have been given me the same result as using the same company compatibility. as mentioned, there is a learning curve, and i have not painted in 3 years so i have to come up to speed there, too.
i will selectively continue to use Vallejo for small areas & details since i have so much. at some point i will try spraying a solvent based paint, but i have a ways to go, for sure.
thanks again,
sid
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Not much to add other than agree with Doug’s detailed reply.
Since I used Flow Improver with ModelAir, it completely changed my experience, they were much easier to work with.
On the other hand, the latest bottles I have bought are thinner and I can often spray them directly from the bottle, I guess they have updated the formula at some point.
As for Stynlrez primers, I use it bottled by Ammo (One Shot) and have never had any problem painting with Vallejo over them. I understand you are not referring to physically mixing them…
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i cannot remember which one - i was getting a bit frazzled - but either the flow improver or more likely the retarder, was really gelatinous when i squirted it into the mixing cup. i use 1 ounce clear dressing cups from the Big A. to mix in before pouring into the airbrush cup. i appeared to dissolve, but i wonder if it’s gone 'round the bend.
Great to see others using Vallejo too! I really like their range—especially the Model Air line—but I’ve definitely had a few struggles getting the thinning and airbrush settings just right.
Do you usually spray straight from the bottle, or do you thin it a bit more? And have you found a primer that works best under Vallejo without lifting?
i thin even the Model Air paints. i don’t have enough experience to know better, but i have read even it is too thick out of the bottle. of course Model Color gets a greater proportion of thinning. i do really like using the Thinner Medium instead of Thinner.
initially when i started using Vallejo Acrylic paints, the slightest abrasion would make the paint roll off the styrene. seems it wasn’t just my conundrum. everywhere i turned, Badger StynlRez was mentioned as the primer of choice. So i jumped on that Bus, and feel good about the choice.
Many choices of color and readily available where the “military guys” shop. Vallejo seems to like it as much as i do, with the possible caveat one should use Badger modifiers, but that will probably be over-ridden by the next ten posters that use Windex, windshield washer fluid x the gallon, or any number of home brew mordants, rendering my choice as the worst possible ever.
still working on air pressure, but i think i’m around 22# and seems okay until i try something else and that works, too.
it’s a journey!
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also, and again perhaps due to my inexperience, i prime everything. sometimes as a grounding exercise i’ll do a half gray (it’s dark from the bottle) half white mix for the first coat. i use it as a “guide coat” to determine if my construction is actually ready to be painted. then i will use another “color primer” geared toward my finish color preference.
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Vallejo is a good paint but environmental factors to including how the paint is stored can impact the results. Vallejo seems to be changing things between batches or maybe a batch wasn’t mixed good enough but it seems Vallejo is more of an art form than science to spray well. As in we can do the same things and get different results. With other paint brands we would be closer. It’s the one paint brand I use that always has a primer applied first. When I use Tamiya paints, my other go to, I usually don’t use a primer.
Best is really looking at what you plan to do with the model. It’s on a base of some kind where you have limited touches, planned heavy weathering, chipping etc.
For Model Color and Panzer Aces,once I started using the Flow Improver,that was the absolute end of my dry tip problems,always used 10-2-2 paint,thinner,flow improver.
I usually spray it over Tamiya or Mr Surfacer 1200 primer.
I’ll never used StynlRez again,laid down nice enough,but it jammed my airbrush really bad.
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Thanks for the detailed reply—that really makes sense. I’ve definitely had moments where Vallejo seemed “perfect” one day and finicky the next, even with the same setup. It’s kind of comforting (and frustrating!) to know it’s not just me.
I’ve mostly used their primers too, but I’m tempted to test others. Have you had good luck with any third-party primers under Vallejo—like Stynylrez or Mr. Surfacer?
I have sprayed Stynylrez and used rattle can Mr Surfacer and Tamiya. The first I had issues with, don’t recall what. The rattle cans warmed sprayed fine with no issues.
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Thanks for the input! I’ve heard good things about Stynylrez but also a few people mention it can be finicky depending on humidity or how it’s applied. Sounds like the rattle cans were more consistent for you—did you find Tamiya gave a smoother finish than Mr. Surfacer, or about the same?
I’ve mostly used brush-on primers so far, so I’m thinking of trying out a rattle can or airbrush option next.
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I found Mr Surfacer 1500 slightly better than Tamiya Fine but both are good.
I find rattle cans a quick easy fix just not as economical as spraying.
Thanks for the comparison! I’ve heard Mr Surfacer 1500 gets great reviews for filling and smoothness. Agree that rattle cans are convenient for quick jobs, but not the best value for larger projects.
Do you usually thin your spray cans or use them straight? And for airbrushing, do you stick with Mr Surfacer or try other primers too?
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I spray straight from the can. Stynylrez Is the only one have shot with an airbrush. I used the black and you see here my results and issues I was having.
Mr Surfacer and Tamiya was both rattle can straight.
I used Mr Surfacer on my VW truck interior and Tamiya for the exterior. When I took off the Tamiya top coat green color with ipa it took the primer off as well. Mr Surfacer did not come off.
I’ve had the same experience and was hoping someone else on the thread would mention it. Seems to me that it would be hard to mix for airbrushing and is designed more for brush work.
I prime everything with Badger flat black Stynylrez acrylic primer shot through an airbrush at about 40-45 PSI. It thins with alcohol, not water, and sands quite well once cured. I add a couple drops of Vallejo Flow Improver to each color cup full of primer. It is very hard to spray when humidity is low and temperature is high so avoid those conditions. After using Badger primer, completely clean your airbrush before spraying Vallejo paints. The combination of Badger primer plus Vallejo paint plus alcohol in the system will produce gum balls and clog your airbrush. Alcohol will attack and pull up this kind of primer. I often use Vallejo Sky Gray as a preshade color over Badger flat black primer.
Badger white primer is no good for figure and model work. It comes up in sheets when sanded.
All Vallejo primers I tried–black, panzer gray, primer red, white–are terrible. They take too long to dry, like to run, and pull up in sheets when sanded. They are not true primers and behave like cheap latex paint.
Mr. Surfacer is great stuff other than being super toxic. Wear a very good mask when using it and clean your airbrush very well when done. It will brick your airbrush if allowed.
One trick I learned with Vallejo Model Color paints is to cut them with thinner in advance. Acquire some spare bottles. Pour half of a Model Color paint into a second bottle, then add thinner to both, bringing them to Model Air consistency. Now you have two for one and do not need to mess with thinning that paint every time it is used.
Another thing I highly recommend is to put labels on your bottles. For example, if you do the trick above, label the bottles–already thinned. If you find a color that sprays really well without thinning, put that on the label. If you find a different color that requires significant thinning, put that on the label. If you tweak a color to adjust the shade, put that on the label. If you do not do these things, you will come back to the paint 6 months later and wonder why it is misbehaving or a weird color or whatever.
Not all paints by a given brand are created equal because pigment molecules affect the chemistry. Anything built around yellow ocher tends to cover well. Black and grays also tend to cover well. Greens and white are often problem children. A mixing ratio that works with one color may not work with another. Once you figure out what works…put it on the label.
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