“Scaling up a smaller kit isn’t the way to go, if you ask me.”
Especially if your are a commercial enterprise …
Cheers
Christopher
Next stop the “Tropen” discussion …
Diminishing Andy’s efforts before anybody has yet seen the damn thing is becoming a sort of sport for a while. Getting lost in … for most modelers … neglectable details is getting more and more pathetic.
There is NO and NEVER will be “the” perfect model kit… so enjoy and make the best of what’s available. I believe one can (I we will see) make a very nice Tiger 1 model out of this kit without needing to know “exactly” what the crew had for breakfast that day. And scrutinizing everything down to the last screw not everyones priority in this hobby.
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I know one thing for sure. When the perfect kit comes along folks will complain about it being to expensive. The design of these kits requires man hours. Thats where the money goes out the door.
So there needs to be a balance between man hours, material costs, marketing and how much the customer will pay.
Ive been down that road. I can tell anyone who will listern that you will never please everyone. Heck i doubt you would please the majority. Unless we are all prepared to accept some compromises and some errors no one will make the effort to produce anything.
Question - how many identical Tigers were serving at the end of WW2?
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I don’t know why you accuse me of “diminishing Andy’s efforts” when, according to popular consensus, this kit was designed by Takom. Perhaps you know better?
And why are you being so negative? Treat this as a positive - it’s an opportunity for a small manufacturer to produce a correction parts set. Or for a keen modeller to do some cutting and scratchbuilding.
And you think I’m shocked at the “imperfect” model? No, I’m not. I expected this kit to be imperfect. We should all expect a kit to be imperfect - so why are you upset when I list the imperfections?
Worst of all, I’m getting knocked for criticising a kit before it’s “out the door”. This is how I look at it: if I point out an error at the CAD stage, the maker might take note and fix it. But if I wait until the kit’s on sale, nothing will be done.
Anyway; to the next poster; how many identical Tigers were there? None. But there’s a difference between “different” and “plain wrong”.
David
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Looks like somebody here knows the “Tricks” of the trade !
What I find quite irritating with your approach is that somehow … if you are not listen or noticed … disaster will take its corse. Which ain’t gonna happen for the vast majority of modelers and producers. Nice to know but not really that relevant to spoil the fun.
Maybe if you would be able to “promote” a kit even with its minor flaws and without the “threat” of making lists … you might get the desired results in the future more easily.
Christopher
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I’m not sure what “results” you think I desire.
If you suggest that I collaborate with a modelling firm and NOT point out flaws in the resulting kit, well, that is basically the same as being an employee. But I’m not an employee. I’m on the side of the modeller and I’m going to make a list.
David
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No offence to rivet counters, but I basically read those sort of articles when i’m having trouble getting off to sleep.
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Well I am far from being a rivet counter, but do like to try to make my models as close to the real thing as my skills will allow me. I for one do not see what the argument is. If you want to be a “rivet” counter, and make your models as close to the real thing as possible, more power to you.
If you want to build “out of the box”, likewise, more power to you.
David on his website does an invaluable job for those who want their Tiger kits to be the most real world accurate, he has done all the research already for each Tiger kit.
If, like me, you are not a “rivet” counter, just don’t worry about it and build the model to what you like, and to your modeling ability, or use his site to get the most accurate kit out of the box, I do not see the need for an argument about it.
Don’t know how you got that from David’s posts. Must be a reading comprehension thing.
Having a really good base kit is the key, if its gotta a few small problems i’m sure they will be addressed by Aftermarket companies. I’m waiting for a release date and price!
The desired “result” maybe being Invited/involved at a much earlier stage to possibly achieve some additional level of accuracy you demand from producers now.
And as BGT correctly pointed out the marketing/production process is long done and decided at this stage/time. The available info (CAD pics) is for promoting the product to secure the return for their investment, which in both cases is MONEY …That is how business works.
Either which way we all don’t know what the final kit will look like despite what findings you have to offer now. Your final conclusion/input is only possible when the kit is available for purchase and one can look what’s finally in the box. Till then all you are really offering are speculations … and please forgive me if I can’t take that seriously at this given time.
Your tube example … is a good example why is not easy to fix from a production point of view … and it’s also not about wrong or right.
Christopher
First let me say my experience is in the model railroad industry and back in the 1990s.
We imported, manufactured and wholesaled many brands. Some big names. Some not so big names and our own brands. We manufactured in house and had items made for us overseas. I wont disclosed the business as we sold it and out of respect for the current owners I’ll limit my comments.
But let me say that the industry is littered with small businesses who “tried” to enter the market. I couldn’t count the number of them that had a great idea. Produced a great product at their price point. Many, many of them found out the hard way that hobbyists are full of talk. Have short arms when reaching into their pockets. Sales simply never matched the perceived numbers. As a result they either gave up or went out of business.
The way I see it is that we all need to encourage the likes of Andys. And IF its not up to YOUR standard or expectation do one of two thing. First we can accept the product for what it is and if need be do our own modification. Or second encourage the after market guys to provided the “corrections” that WE want.
Finally these forums are a blessing and a cures. The blessing is that we can share our ideas and thoughts. The downside is it is way to easy to misinterpret what someone is trying to say. Instead of a suggestion or constructive criticism the writers words are construde as a hard put down. If you have something to say choose your words carefully. If you read someones comment be careful how you interpret what they are trying to say.
Will I buy one of Andys 1/16 Tigers? No simply because the subject doesnt interest me all that much. But if I did buy one I would be grateful that it was even available.
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Best (i.e. worst) example of which were the Airfix 1:12th scale French Imperial Guardsman and the Bengal Lancer, upsized from their 54mm predecessors with absolutely NO refinement or added detail.
Cheers,
M
So following one expressed line of reasoning above, I should shell out good money for a faulty automobile after it has gone into production, despite those faults being apparent during pre-production tests? Not me.
While the CADs for this Tiger are naturally being promoted to generate interest/pre-orders, I doubt AHHQ would have deliberately published unrepresentative images of the final kit, that would be deception. So if there are clear inaccuracies visible in the CADs, why shouldn’t they be discussed now? What advantage to anyone could be gained by waiting until later?
And if we’re talking commerce, if you buy an item purporting to be an X and it turns out it isn’t (even if for minor reasons) the usual redress is a return of the item & a refund. Imagine that consumer law applied to model kits. Crazy? Of course…but why? I guess it’s because kit manufacturers never claim it’s a 100% accurate model on the box, how could it be? But then they don’t state that it’s only an approximation of the real thing either, we just assume that.
There are modellers who don’t care so much about errors or inaccuracies and that’s absolutely fine. But there are other modellers who do want as much accuracy as possible - I’m one of them. Especially given the probable price of this particular kit, why should I have to spend yet more money buying after-market corrections when the original kit designer could & should have got it right in the first place, at no extra developmental cost?
We’re tolerant of those who don’t mind inaccuracies, I hope we’d all agree that’s their absolute right. And incidentally they have minds of their own and don’t need others to speak on their behalf. The discussion here is amongst those interested in the best possible accuracy…so why the intolerance of those who have that equal right?
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I think it’s all about “expectations”.
“What ‘inaccuracies’ is the average buyer prepared to accept?” And that’s where we all have different expectations. And those “expectations” come with a dollar value for all of us. So some may be happy paying the asking price while others won’t accept the ‘accuracies’ for the price.
So what to do? Let your pocket talk. If it sells like hot cakes then the market has spoken. If not then the market has also spoken. The market is in favour of low quality MG cars at the moment. Faults and all. While demand for new mercedes not so much even though it has higher quality and a price to match.
In all my years of business, I always found price beat quality. Yes, folks complained but price wins everytime. ‘Faults’ and all.
Remember ‘quality’ costs. How much are you willing to pay for quality?
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Yep agree with all you said. That’s what (I think) this thread’s discussion is about - for this particular kit and its likely price, it should be high quality & that means high(est) possible accuracy.
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David;
You know I’ve always enjoyed your insight, and advice on what to do and not to do. I certainly applaud you for this!
Now as John Wayne would say; “lets get to the rat killing!” For many years we all chased the elusive African Tiger. I saw them on Ebay for $200 several times (just nuts!). Then out of nowhere RFM came out with an early Tiger. You pointed out the ups & downs with the kit, but it wasn’t all gloom and doom. You told me what and how to fix it’s glitches, and I ran out and bought three of them. That $40 kit (at the time) was a true gift from above. I thank you one more time! I’ve since bought about six or eight more RFM Tigers in various forms (I still want a couple “mid Tigers.”) What RFM did was give us excellent starting points and yet affordable. Plus it made the others up their game plan. Yet you keep plugging away with each new Tiger sending out eons of help in the process. I take it this way; if they don’t like what you say, then build it out of the box.
You’re alright in my book
gary
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That is for the older Hobby Boss kit (not a well thought of kit), not Andy’s so i would not be too quick to jup on that ship.
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